Stu Ungar FACTS

[Ryan_21]

ESPN estimated that he won over $30 million dollars playing poker in his livetime. And, i know for a fact that he took $3 million+ off of Larry Flint playing heads up. The fact that he died broke has nothing to do with his poker playing ability. The man did not loose one dime of that +$30million playing poker, he lost it by spending it on coke/crack and making dumbass fu ckin bets on other things like sports and golf.

The fact that he died broke is irrelivant. It is the same as someone who is up + $30 million playing poker and decided to give that money to a charity.

Anybody who discredits his accomplishments are just playa hatin and jealous because they are not up +$30 million playing poker, and only those, and I do mean only those who are up overall more than $30 million have the right to say anything negative about Stuey, and I dont think there is anybody on here in that stature.

So, if you are not up +$30 million or better shut your f'in mouth about the deceased and give the man his props.

Ryan_21

[Homer]

The man did not loose one dime of that +$30million playing poker, he lost it by spending it on coke/crack and making dumbass fu ckin bets on other things like sports and golf.

The fact that he died broke is irrelivant. It is the same as someone who is up + $30 million playing poker and decided to give that money to a charity.

You are correct that it is irrelevant when judging his poker playing ability. However, it is certainly not irrelevant when judging him as a human being. Obviously, someone who gives $30 million to charity will be viewed in higher regard than someone who blows the same amount on drugs and foolish wagers.

only those who are up overall more than $30 million have the right to say anything negative about Stuey

How do you figure?

-- Homer

[Ryan_21]

How do I figure?

I figure if I cant hit a 25 foot jumper I cant talk smack about Iverson if he misses a few.

I figure if I cant rush for 43 yards against the Bucs defense I cant talk smack about Marshall Faulk if he only rushes for 53 yards against them.

I figure if I cant return a 105 mph serve I cant talk smack about Agassi if he blows an Ace against Samprass.

I figure if I cant dunk on Shaq, I cant talk smack about T-Mac if he gets packed against Shaq.

Get the picture? If you cant do it dont hate! Its that simple.

Ryan_21

[Ryan_21]

...Nobody was trying to judge him as a human being, we were trying to judge him as a card player!!!!!!!!

Ryan_21

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Ryan:

I don't know where or how they came up with that $30 million figure. I use to see him walk in and out of the Mirage poker room but he almost never sat down and played.

I would see him occasionally playing in a big side game at a tournament, and I do know some other people who played against him in other games, and their opinion (or at least what they have told me), is similar to what Ray Zee has stated here.

Again, my impression, and it could be wrong, is that while Unger was gifted in some ways, he had way too much gamble in him. And, having way too much gamble is not a formula for ring game success, especially when the table is full.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Howard Burroughs]

Hi Ryan,


I'm about as big a Stu Ungar fan as you'll find. I used to love to watch him play (from the rail) back in the day. Sometimes (when a good spot on the rail was handy), I'd watch him for hours on end.



You're right that he was something special. But when Ray Zee says (in a post a while back), that playing live games (cash games) with Stu was like taking candy from a baby; and when Doyle says Stu's cash game play is WAY over rated. I believe Doyle & Ray.



My understanding (from talking to many who knew Stu over the years), is that while he won a ton of money in big buy-in tournies, he lost a lot of money in the big side games. They call it Phil Hellmuth syndrome in Vegas (though Stu was a much better poker player then Phil as far as I can tell).



I think Stu was a great, great player (see Dynasty's post) in his niche. He was just no Chip Reese (able to beat any poker game for any stakes) like a lot of people are led to believe.



Best of Luck

Howard

[Homer]

Get the picture? If you cant do it dont hate! Its that simple.

Who said anything about hate?

I had assumed that this discussion was going to be about both his poker playing ability and his lifestyle. I can understand your position regarding others judging him as a poker player without ever having squared off against him, though I don't necessarily agree with it.

-- Homer

[Ryan_21]

This discussion was never about his lifestyle and was 100% about his playing ability from what I've read.

Ryan_21

[Duke]

Agreed - and as well we shouldn't. Everyone has their own demons that they do battle with in their own ways.

To judge someone as a human being I want to hear about them killing babies or running out of a burning building to leave some other people inside.

Now, maybe he didn't help out his wife and daughter too much, which is something that I'll agree is messed up, and makes him a jackass in my eyes, but the self-abuse has nothing at all to do with it, save in that specific context.

~D

[Tyler Durden]

I have won more than $30 million playing poker. No joke.

[Big Al]

Having "way too much gamble" is not a formula for success in life overall and those that do always end up busted one way or the other.

[Schmed]

then don't bother ever bad mouthing your Windows software because I doubt you could create a better operating system....oh and the President....don't ever critisize him as you clearly could never be elected President....

[Terry]

Here’s a little story I once hear Stu tell.

“I had a horrible nightmare last night. I woke up sweating and shaking and my heart was pounding. I dreamed I was playing no limit Hold ‘em with my own money.”

[baggins]

i agree with this.

i refrain from much comment on the president precisely because i am not the president and do not operate under the same curcumstances and conditions as he does.

[southerndog]

I agree with Duke. Its terrible to judge others. You can say, he did drugs, and that's a mistake.. or, he neglected his family, and that's a mistake, but that doesn't put us in a position to judge others. Sitting in judgment of others is what certain groups in the south like to do, and it is the only thing I don't like about this part of the country, that and the lack of casinos..

[ElSapo]

i refrain from much comment on the president precisely because i am not the president and do not operate under the same curcumstances and conditions as he does.

But you (the general you, not you specifically) elected him and this is why, exactly, you should be talking and criticising. This example doesn't really apply.

I don't really agree with the statement that just b/c you can't do something doesn't mean you can't criticise it. Many people have a vested stake, one way or another, in many things -- people with season tickets to the Sox are probably well within their rights to criticise the management, regardless of whether or not they could do better.

[Michael Davis]

This is a basic tu quoque fallacy.

Try conducting an argument without resorting to vulgarity.

-Mike

[Michael Davis]

How ironic that we are not allowed to "judge others" because "certain groups in the south" do so.

Perhaps you forgot your own request?

Anyways, judging others by their personal conduct is completely legitimate. It is what we do when we send people to prison, take away their children, or decide not to marry them. I can't imagine a place where we can't judge others. This is how me make friends and get along socially in the world.

Even if you are referring to people we don't know, we can still judge them. We just need to watch out for misinformation. People are all conflicted; everyone is good and bad. Some ARE better than others. The best thing we have to judge someone on is their personal conduct. Here, Stuey falls way short of the mark. (Notice the difference between this and judging someone by their ethnicity.)

-Mike

[tiltboy]

Elaborate?

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Sitting in judgment of others is what certain groups in the south like to do

[/ QUOTE ]
Irony? You have just judged an entire region of the country, millions of people. Are you so myopic that you think racial prejudice only exists in the south? Here's a trivia question for you - in which state of the union was the klu klux klan formed?

[Jim Kuhn]

You mean play money counts?

[andyfox]

Well, let's think about this.

Let's say you're a 20-40 player winning one big blind an hour. Let's say you participate in 8 hands an hour, losing four, averaging $100 lost per hand, and winning four, averaging $110 won per hand. Let's say you play 40 hours a week.

So in a week you'd win $17,600 and you'd lose $16,000. In a year you'd win $915,200 and you'd lose $832,000. After thirty years, you'd have won $27,456,000 and lost $24,960,000. [I'm bad at this, someone should check my math.]

Kind of frightening to think about. If only we could eliminate those losing hands . . .

[southerndog]

Tiltboy, I was not referring to racial prejudice
at all. I was referring to overbearing religious zealots.
When we have football games in town, there are people who
stand with big signs that say "Live a chaste life." In other words, listen to me tell you how to live your life.
They are the ones that end up being the biggest hypocrites.
To answer your trivia question, I'm not sure, but it may be Ohio or Maine that has the highest Klan partcipants nationwide.

Michael, I still disagree with your comments.
When we send someone to jail what we are supposed to be doing is punishing them for the crime they committed. I can think of people that are scummier than a lot of people that end up in jail. Hence "We hate the act, not the person." Otherwise, we never give people a chance to redeem themselves. If I dislike the way someone lives their lives, I have the decision not to be around them. That doesn't give me the right to yell "sinner" at them everytime I see them. Doing the latter is Puritanical, and its what this country needs to get away from. If it were up to some, women would still wear scarlet letters.

[J_V]

Ok, he's the most overrated card player of all time.

[Ryan_21]

Yeah, he won 3 world championships, was 10 out of 30 in tournys w/ $5000+buy-ins, was banned from playing blackjack at all vegas casinos, was banned from all Gin championships b/c of his dominance, etc, etc, etc, but if you say he's overrated.....

Ryan_21