Bernie Williams, HOFer?

[Sooga]

I was watching 'Pardon The Interruption' when the topic of Bernie Williams' HOF candidacy came up. I don't think he's a HOFer, and I don't think it's very close. I don't think he's ever been considered one of the best OF's in the league, he's only led his league in a batting category once (1998, with a .339 avg), he's never even finished in the top 5 of any MVP voting, he's 35 years old, and he doesn't even have 2000 hits. So he has career averages of .300/.400/.500. That's not really all THAT terrific considering the era he's been playing in. Look at Manny, Bagwell, Thomas if you want big-time numbers. As for his defense, he's a mediocre CF, at best, with one of the weakest throwing arms in the league. Don't get me wrong, Bernie is a good hitter, certainly an above average CF for a long time. But HOFer? I don't think it's even arguable.

[Ed Miller]

Here's my list of active players who belong in the HOF based on their accomplishments to date (that is, if they retired at the end of this year, they should be inducted).

Pitchers:
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez

Hitters:
Rickey Henderson
Barry Bonds
Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
Mike Piazza

Bubble

Pitchers:
Tom Glavine
Kevin Brown

Hitters:
Fred McGriff
Ken Griffey Jr.

[Clarkmeister]

I don't think so, but I also doubt he'll get serious consideration.

FWIW, here are his career stats as of the end of this year"

Career 1991-2003
Games 1656
Hits 1950
Runs 1143
HR 241
RBI 1062
SB 143
OBP .390
SLG .492
AVG .305

And IIRC....4 World Series rings going on 5?

[Clarkmeister]

Your list is too small.

[Ed Miller]

Who would you add? Bagwell, Thomas, Galarraga, Biggio? Do you think that if they never played another game, they had HOF careers? I can't see adding any pitchers... Kevin Brown looks next in line, and I can't see him qualifying. Maybe Glavine shouldn't be a bubble boy.

[Clarkmeister]

Off the top of my head, so be nice.....

Glavine is a stone cold lock.

Thomas is bubble now, but probabaly makes it. Hell, Puckett did.

Pudge Rodriguez is in today.

I don't think McGriff will get in. Griffey is still a lock.

Smoltz is in.

Mariano Rivera is in.

Biggio is in. Speaking of second base, Alomar is a first ballot guy.

Bagwell has a shot. He's a true bubble guy. So is Edgar Martinez.

Vizquel has a shot, I'm not sure how many years he has put in though.

Best I can do off the top of my head. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[andyfox]

No, not if his big number years are over. Not close. An excellent player, but no a HOF career.

Bernie was a terrific center fielder in his prime. Never had much of an arm, but he could go get 'em with the best of 'em.

[Sooga]

Frank Thomas bubble? Jeff Bagwell bubble? Are you guys nuts? Bill James had Jeff Bagwell I believe ranked the #4 all time 1B. While I'm not sure he's THAT good, he's put up unbelievable numbers. .300/.410/.550, on top of that he's got 2000+ hits, 400+ homers, 400+ doubles, 1400+ rbi, and a hair under 200 SB. Plus he's only 35. By the time his career is over he should have at least 2500 hits, 500HR, 500 2B, and 1800 RBI. Assuming his AVG/OBP/SLG numbers don't completely fall off, I don't see how anyone could say Bags is bubble. I don't think it's even an argument.

As for Frank Thomas, if a two-time MVP with black ink all over the place (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml) is still considered a bubble player, then I've been watching the wrong sport all these years.

As for who I think is bubble, Smoltz and Palmeiro immediately come to mind.

[ QUOTE ]
Off the top of my head, so be nice.....

Glavine is a stone cold lock.

Thomas is bubble now, but probabaly makes it. Hell, Puckett did.

Pudge Rodriguez is in today.

I don't think McGriff will get in. Griffey is still a lock.

Smoltz is in.

Mariano Rivera is in.

Biggio is in. Speaking of second base, Alomar is a first ballot guy.

Bagwell has a shot. He's a true bubble guy. So is Edgar Martinez.

Vizquel has a shot, I'm not sure how many years he has put in though.

Best I can do off the top of my head. /images/graemlins/confused.gif



[/ QUOTE ]

[andyfox]

Palmiero is a sure thing with the 500 home runs. So will McGriff once he gets there. I thnk both make it anyway if they're careers ended right now.

[M2d]

They're going to have to move the hall to a bigger location if you ever get in charge of balloting!!=)
I think the question was "...if they stopped playing today" That would automatically disqualify Mariano, right? (no ten years yet).

for projected numbers, I think mariano, if he can keep it up, will at least deserve a look. unfortunately, he needs to shine far more than a starting pitcher, since there's a bias against relievers. plus, he's never among the league leaders, so he doesn't really stand up to the criteria of the hall. granted, he's been among the best, but never head and shoulders above the rest of the league (except in postseason).

I think, if he can put up two or three more great years, Gagne, can get a look (ala Koufax, who was really at the top for only a handful of seasons).


Similarly, I think the Unit deserves a look for his dominance over a few seasons. His longterm career is nice, but his brilliance over a short term should, at least, put him in contention. Not sure he'd make it, though.

I think A-Rod, Ichiro and Puljols have a shot if they can stay on track. That's the tough part about Vizquel. He's, hands down, the best around with the glove, but A-Rod, Tejada and Nomar are all pretty good too. And they hit the crap out of the ball, which Omar doesn't really do. Unfortunately, he falls short against his peers, and that will weigh against him.

[andyfox]

One thing Rivera has going for him is his post-season play, especially in the World Series. Guys who get a lot of post-season publicity seem to get more votes. Catfish Hunter and Tony Perez seem two examples of minimally qualified candidates who made it this way. Perhaps the number of votes garnered by Puckett, as opposed to Mattingly, reflect this as well.

[Rube]

[ QUOTE ]
Bubble

Hitters:
Fred McGriff
Ken Griffey Jr.

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting Griffey on the bubble with McGriff is brutal, even if you're a hard core Seattle fan /images/graemlins/grin.gif

He's in spitting range of 500 homeruns, and a ten-time gold glove centerfielder, an 11 time all star, has one MVP with five seasons in the top 5 in MVP voting. And he was considered the best player in the AL, if not in MLB, for a good part of his prime.

[Sooga]

Hmm, you're right. I went and actually looked at Raffy's career stats today and they're a LOT better than I thought they were. For some reason I thought he was a .260something career hitter. Not only is he .290/.370/.520 career hitter, he's one good season away from 3,000 hits, which totally blew me away. I had no idea he had that many already. Add to that his 500HR and his good defense, and yea, he should be a shoo-in.