Fold top pair on the flop?

[Acesover8s]

10-20 game, loose passive. 5 limpers I have J2o. Flop comes J46. i check to see the action. 1 bet, 4 calls, back to me and I muck.

Good, bad, obvious?

[PokerPrince]

Bad.

PokerPrince

[haakee]

I think you should see another card. I'd be very surprised if there's not a better jack out there, but you're closing the action and you have 3 outs to what is likely the winning hand getting 11:1, and you will get paid several more bets when your 2-pair hits and is good.

[Depraved]

This might be a controversial idea, but I think it was an OK if not good fold.

In limit holdem, you have to not only have the best hand, but also know it's the best, and being first to act against 5 opponents with your top pair no kicker sucks. And against this loose lineup, you'll never know if you're in front, and so you'll innevitably end up pushing the hand too far or check/calling when things get confusing. It will probably take at least 1 small bet and 1 big bet to find out if you're already beat, and then you can still be beat on the river.

Some might say you're number one on the flop and should bet or checkraise. I'd say you're lucky if you're on a 3-outer, and of course that could get counterfeited or beat easily.

You are getting something like 11-1. 3 outers need about 15-1, and 5 outers need about 8-1, so it's close but why make this gamble? You can wait for a much better spot.

Your other option is betting or checkraising. I opt against these for reasons stated above - they will only get you more involved in this hand where you're probably getting the worst of it most of the time. This loose table magnifies the problem since you won't know very well where you're at.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
Bad.

PokerPrince

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I knew that was coming, which is why I posted it. One thing that perhaps I should have mentioned is that this game is passive enough that if I lead out here, AJ will not raise me, only call. I will get raised on the turn, and only if a player makes 2 pair or better.

So, often the action is this game goes: I flop top pair poor kicker against 5-6 players. I bet and get called in 3 places. Turn is a blank. I bet out, get 3 callers. River is a scary card, say Q or K. I check and call the bet, only to be shown AJ.

It seems this has happened frequently enough that I'm trying to find the best way to counter it. Any ideas?

[Acesover8s]

Sure, I'm getting 11-1, and the implied odds somewhat make up for that, but there is also the chance that I am behind already, plus if there is another Jack out there, and I do hit my deuce on the turn he still has a 9 out redraw, which I would likely pay off, which somewhat countereffects my implied odds.

[karlson]

I think it's a good fold, fwiw. I think there is a similar example in HPFAP, where with a flop that offers drawing chances (I don't know if your flop was two-tone, but that would swing it even more towards folding), you have top pair and fold after a bet and a call.

[mikelow]

I would have bet the flop. But since your call completes the action, call!

[ALL1N]

It's a call I reckon.

The 11-1 odds you're getting are sufficient, because you could easily be winning here.

[Depraved]

1. Being ahead with just a top pair of jacks is almost meaningless with 5 drawing opponents and 2 cards to come.

2. He could also very easily have only 3 outs in the deck.

[Depraved]

I'm sure PokerPrince has some different ideas, but mine is just to fold this trash and wait for the next hand.

I used to play these situations too much until I realized it was actually a leak in my game. I decided they weren't worth playing for all the reasons you stated.

[anatta]

Isn't the "book" play (Top pair weak kicker, in EP multiway pot) to check the flop, and see what developes? If the bet comes from aggressive LP, consider a check-raise. If there is a bet and a raise, fold. If there is a bet and a caller you have a decision, but a bet and four callers?? That's a fold in my book.

The fact that this is a passive game where a Jack would not raise makes playing on wrong, IMO.

[Lebronomania]

Fold. Seems like with this kinda hand, ur just waiting for someone to raise you off it, probably after you've already paid off on the flop and turn. Fold, and attend to your other 5 tables. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[LondonBroil]

I would fold it and not give it a 2nd thought.

[ajizzle]

obvious!!