Being Honest

Last night I st down for a few minutes in a $20-$40 hold 'em game at The Mirage. Two players immediately told me how bad they were running and how they couldn't win a hand. My reply was "That's great to hear. I wish I had gotten here a little earlier."


Now I just happened to tell the truth. But most everyone else would have replied with some sympathy. Why is that?


Mason

By sympathizing with them, you will tend to encourage them to stay within their current negative mental state, which is either being frustrated (which can lead to loose-passive or loose-aggressive play), feeling discouraged (which can cause them to play weak-tightish), or feeling helpless (which can cause them to also play weak-tightish).


The key is to just be sympathetic BUT NOT encouraging. Keep them within their negative states by listening to their sad stories BUT NEVER lead them out of it with encouraging words like "Everything will be okay....". Instead, shake your head, sigh, and say: "Yep, I know exactly what you mean....these bad streaks can go on forever and we're all totally helpless to do anything about it".

For the people to admit that they're losing in the first place, they're probably looking for somekind of recognition from their opponents. The losing players may have more of a desire to be accepted by their opponents than to win money. If they were out to win money, they wouldn't say something like "I can't win a hand" because they're giving clues that they're in tilt.


The players who respond with sympathy are fulfilling their losing opponents' desires of being accepted by the group. Therefore, the losing players who admit weakness will be less likely to leave, and may not mind staying on tilt because their own desires for being accepted are being fulfilled.


I'm sure that most people don't enjoy being on tilt, but I would guess that these people are used to it.


The concept would be the same if a solid player acted (not played) a little flamboyant when a loose aggressive player sat down. The loose aggressive player would enjoy another person like himself at the table.


Mason- any chance that they were loose passive players? That seems like the type of thing that a loose and passive player would say.

Play the role of a trusted father, a dear friend, or a caring brother. But keep your assassin's knife sharpened, ready to slash them bastards' throats. Social occasions are warfare concealed!

A pit boss I know told me the following true story: A player was running absolutely horrible at blackjack, losing almost every hand, crushed on virtually every split and double down--and this was happening shoe after shoe. The player complained to the pit boss, who said, "What do you want me to tell you? Go home!" and she walked off.


Of course the player stayed all night.

Hi Mason- As you discuss in your recent article, people sometimes "take shots" at those players who are "running bad". For this reason alone, it never makes sense to me when people tell opponents AT THE TABLE how "badly" they are running (or playing). The only reason I can find for doing this type of thing is to get a warm shoulder to cry on. It is as though the person is making an excuse "in advance" for what will no doubt be a negative outcome at the end of the session. He is effectively giving you a reason to beat him up and is denying any responsibility for his actions.

Why do people generally respond with sympathy? Well, the standard comment to someone who tells you they are "running bad" is to say something like : "it happens to us all" . This is a way of letting the "victim" know he still accepted, even if he is a loser. He is still part of the group and every once in awhile he has to have his turn "in the barrel". When a pal shares his woes, we "understand" his pain and offer sympathy (to the poor victim he is) by sharing that we too have run bad. If he says he is playing bad, that makes him a target, not a victim, right? Or..when you respond "I wish I had gotten here a little eariler", that also makes him a target not a victim, right? This guy is begging you to not beat him up when he tells you he is running bad. Unfortunately for him, he has just cast his fate as a loser by sharing such vulnerable information with you. I have no idea why anyone would do this unless they really expect to get beat and then make losing a self-fulfilling prophecy. I guess they don't realize that a professional does not give others information to use against him. Also, a professional is there to win money, despite the circumstances of others. Babe

in polite society we are taught to be non confrontational.


brad

If anything substantially different had happened in the room, such as Mason being at the table, or a waitress spilling a drink, those guys' cards would probably have run slightly better.


But this "I wish" and "I hope" is not something that has ever made sense to me. Like a guy hopes he wins the million-dollar lottery. Why not hope they accidentally give you 10 million?


How does one set limits on what one hopes for? Why not hope for a second planet Earth connected by a space tunnel? Why not hope for anything? How does one pick what to hope for?


See, in Mason's case, all he really wished is that the roof would break open and rain money, or whatever else he wants, on his head. Why not hope for a magic game everyone wins?


So, when you specifically choose someone else becoming poorer and say that's what you wish, you either are coldhearted or dishonest or something. I just don't get it.


eLROY

eLROY: "So, when you specifically choose someone else becoming poorer and say that's what you wish, you either are coldhearted or dishonest or something. I just don't get it."


Given the nature of poker, that's exactly what we wish and strive for when we choose to take a seat and play the game.


What exactly don't you get?:-)

What I wish for is world peace. What I wish for is Jesus to land right in the middle of the table and cure all our ills. I just don't get it, what the heck is the meaning of the word "wish?"


I wish we'd have a big ol' hoe-down in the sky with 10 trillion happy aliens. I mean, if my only wish was to draw pocket aces 16 million hands in a row, why even waste neurotransmitters?


Hope, frankly, is something I have never understood, but that ends today. Today, somebody is going to explain to me why he confines and constrains his hope to events to which he can assign a certain probability, or something!


I mean, why drive to the card room and "hope" to have a good day? I don't "hope," I just play in such a way that I suspect I will win, or maybe I'm misguided and don't know my play is bad.


But I don't "hope" my play is good, I just analyze it to where I don't feel additional analysis will get any more money for the intellectual effort put in.


Where, or what, is hope? I know there's a chance good things will happen. I know there's a chance I have cancer right now. I know suddenly all types of unexpected good things could happen tomorrow, because the generator of life events is opaque, and I cannot assign it a distribution!


For crying out loud, what do people do when they hope? Isn't it just expect? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOPE AND EXPECTATION? Is hope expectation for people who are bad at statistics? Or is hope expectation when you lie to yourself?


Is hope, by deifnition, more optimistic than expetctaion? Is hope a natural psychological mechanism to protect people from grim reality? Is hope an illusion that your life doesn't suck?


How the heck do people choose what to wish for? Why, M, why don't you wish a rich person would just stop you in traffic and hand you cash, rather than wishing to take it at a poker table?


eLROY

one of the players was Diane of Green Bay and the other was Randy Glover. The rest of us would have been more sympathetic because they don't have it in for us like they do for you /images/smile.gif

Mason,


About three weeks ago a fellow 2+2 approached me and said "I just had my ass handed to me, I am down $80." He had said this to me after I flopped Queens full and got rivered by a weakie playing A3. I just looked at him and didnt say a word. I didnt mention to him that I had just suffered one of the most memorable and worst beats of my life. I didnt want the table to see how losing the hand affected me.


When people tell me they are running bad ect, I usually dont have a response. I have found that most players just want a shoulder to cry on. I usually tell them how great I am doing, even if I am doing horribly. Most players only talk with me to tell me the bad beat stories.


I can't answer why people would give sympathy or look for it either. Perhaps as children its what our parents tell us so we grow up with that belief. Perhaps conditioning?


If a mans wife asks him " Do you like my new outfit?" and he doesnt like it why does he answer, " I love it, its lovely", rather than answer honestly? The man has been conditioned to answer in a manner his wife will like.


Like the Zen koan "What is the sound of one hand clapping?", I dont think an answer truly exists.


Best Wishes

Mk

I wish that my mom was still alive. Doesn't mean I assign a greater-than-zero probability to that happening. I hope to not ever endure terrible physical suffering. Doesn't mean I'm not realistic about this near certainty.


It's just humans, talking and thinking how humans do. I doubt that you are perplexed.


Tommy

Actually, I suspect that DFGB suffers from just the opposite problem -- denial. If you read her posts she always lives a winner.


By the way, denial, in my opinion, is a much bigger problem for some poker players than looking for sympathy ever is.


MM

"I am down $80."


An interesting thing that I noticed many years ago is that each limit seems to have a threshold of pain mimimum. Obviously someone complaining about an $80 lost is a small limit player. If the same person was to move up in limit, let's say to a $10-$20 game, my guess is that at about a $500 lost he would make the exact same complaints.


Best wishes,

Mason

Hi Babe,


I think you hit the nail on the head. I also like to say to people "But think how happy you have made everyone else."


By the way, there's a little more to my answers than just a lack of social skill as some of my detractors would point out. By giving them an unexpected answer like this, I believe that some of them will actually become confused because they have never thought it through this way, and this can affect their play. It's kind of like telling a pretty girl that she is actually "pretty ugly." (Hey, this forum is a lot of fun.)


Best wishes,

Mason

I agree. But I sometimes thain that you can do better than this. See my post below.


MM

"Mason- any chance that they were loose passive players? That seems like the type of thing that a loose and passive player would say."


In this case that was not the case. But one of these people does play way too lose. On the other hand, you might be right in general. Where's Dr. Schoonmaker when we need him.


Best wishes,

Mason

Ray Zee reads this post.


MM

Now that I have put all these posts up, a mathematical way of saying this is that if successful with my answer, I am creating discontinuities in statistical logic. (It's also a mathematical explanation as to why we laugh.) If done right, I believe it can be more effective than showing just the right amount of sympathy.


MM

Since we're attempting to put these players on tilt by either giving sympathy or by being honest, shouldn't we first know how a person plays on tilt? Don't some fish play better on tilt because some may tend to tighten up? Do we really even want to put these people on tilt?


Since everyone is different, wouldn't we first have to know how a person reacts to bad beats before we can assume that giving sympathy or being honest will help us?


That brings up another question, could one person be able "to tilt" in different directions? In other words, could they sometimes get aggressive and loose while other times get passive and tight? If so, how do we know which way to tilt them?

My understanding of tilt is that it implies much less than optimal play. What does it matter in what direction it pushes them. If you tilt too far to either side in your canoe the result is pretty much the same.


Jimbo

In whatever direction they are tilting at a particular moment in time, that's the path of least resistance. And your objective is to amplify their tilt further along that path of least resistance.


In other words, if their tilt is a result of feeling helpless, and this is causing them to play in the tight-weak direction, then your object is to make them feel even more helpless. If their tilt is frustration-induced, and this is causing them to play too loose-aggressive or too loose-passive, your job is to amplify this frustration.


The last thing you wanna do is to pull them in the opposite direction because any effort towards that direction will put them closer to optimal tight-aggressive which is the gear you do not want them to be in.


If they're angry, irritate them. If they're intimidated, attack them. If they're in a hurry, deliberately take a long time to check your hole cards and delay each decision to a crawl even though you already knew what to do a split second after the dealer turned the cards.


Always follow the path of least resistance. Think of it as Psychological Judo. Utilize their momentum to your advantage.

Jedi: "If they're in a hurry, deliberately take a long time to check your hole cards and delay each decision to a crawl even though you already knew what to do a split second after the dealer turned the cards."


I believe this is wrong unless maybe you are playing heads-up at a private table. The reason is that by slowing the game down, you accomplish other effects which are detrimental to your earn. Not only does getting less hands per hour affect you, but playing slowly encourages even the casual player to think more about his decisions and take his time with them...which is very bad. A crisply paced game always produces more action, too, than a plodding game. And worst of all, in a slow game the live ones can get bored and irritated quickly, and guess what? They may wander off or go eat dinner, or pick up their chips and go to another table. I've seen exactly this effect numerous times and it usually has to do with too many hassles slowing the game down, like: a fill coming, then the shift count commencing, then a dealer push, then...you get the idea. The live ones want to PLAY not watch the paint dry. So while I agree with some of your other points about pushing your opponent in the direction he is already leaning too much, I think the one particular tactic of slowing the game down will do you more harm than good.

I agree that eLROY isn't perplexed at all. His lead-in to Mason was just a come on. He's bored and just wants to debate about something or try to create a little confusion.

What is tilt?


Tilt has nothing to do with optimal play. NOBODY plays 10-handed hold'em optimally.


Tilt is the act of a player playing hands differently than what he would have had he not been on tilt.


Tilt makes players harder to read (they arent playing the way they usualy play) but often this is more than compensated by the stupidity of their actions.

I'm not sure the "I really dont care about your horrors" approach is correct. On the other-hand I'm not sure what would be more correct.


Maybe the best strategy is to make their horrors sound trivial. Such as "oh yeah? I'm down $9,000 for the day playing blackjack"


Maybe call this the "its ok to be down whatever amount your are down" strategy.

Point taken.

It was a good tip Tommy.


I can think of many such things, that made me sad, and often that tilted on a knife's edge and really could have gone either way.


But usually, to the extent I could have done anything to influence the outcome, I did, and am left only to question if there are any lessons for the future.


See, just like if Mason had been at the table an entirely different game would have unfolded, if some family member was never likely to have died, we would be living in an entirely different universe.


What would the implications of such a wish be? Would I be wishing that people didn't ever die? Would I be wishing for a different universe, where another set of bad things happened, and in which alternative universe I wasn't even aware that I had traded in - and had the power to trade in - an alternative set of bad things for them?


Maybe, this explains why other people get aggravated in traffic jams and I do not. It's just a bunch of cars, and it means I'll arrive later than I had planned. Hope springs eternal, and I honestly am perplexed at how people contain it. Doesn't it create possibility and disappointment around an infinite sequence of bends in the road?


I remember once we were hiking up the Whitney "mountaineers' route." It seemed like maybe we had taken a wrong turn near the top. But since we were going to keep pressing on, and we had no gear or anything to spend the night, I guess I just thought we would either get to the top and hike down, or we'd end up lost in the wilderness. I didn't hope, I just kept on keepin' on:-)


Or, it's the same thing with surfing, when a cleanout set would completely dominate you, or pin you down. You don't "hope" for a break in the whitewater, you just keep paddling - or holding your breath - until your arms can't move. Then you just sit there and expect your leash won't break.


Anyway, I guess that's enough. A lot of bad things have happened, and I never "wish" I had, like, taken a cab. So you say humans hope, but I just don't see how they can keep up such a pointless activity, like a whale that keeps beaching itself. Is it more like an addiction, or more like a stutter?


eLROY

I would even say that, like, an addiction, people instinctively know hope is wrong, and so they make up ways to trick and deceive themselves, to stop the wishing.


Like, if a loved one dies, they don't just say oh well, she's dead, life sucks. Rather, they say things like "she's in a better place," or "it's better off this way."


eLROY

I found it amusing when I saw Mike's post and your reply because I think Mikey was referring to me. Yes, I'm a LL player - up to 5-10 although have ventured a couple of times at 10-20 but I found it to be above my comfort level not due to lack of skill level but because of bankroll considerations. Granting that my win rate is nothing to brag about I'm holding quite well in 5-10 and the pink game since January.


When I mentioned losing $80 to Mike, it was not to complain but just to strike a conversation as I have not seen him in about a month or so plus the fact that it was my first loss in 5 sessions.


In this beloved game of ours, I have learned that complaining, looking for sympathy, etc. does no benefit whatsoever, because the answer you'll be getting is just like being in a hand: check, call, raise or fold.


My statement has nothing to do with threshold of pain.

To be honest, I am simply an empathic person. I don't think you have to be dishonest to be understanding. Nor do I think you have to be stoic to be a good poker player. You just have be selective about who you discuss your losing streak with, open to constructive critizism, and willing to study and reexamine your play.

Poker Babe is absolutely correct and very perceptive. In this instance, we have an example of a defeatist mentality. They want to be accepted. You want them in your game and should be consoling and non-threatening so that they keep playing. You are essentially massaging their ego in order to get the best of it.


My guess is that this type of player will be loose and passive. This fits the profile.


While off subject, my experience is that this applies to business scenarios and basic social scenarios also.