Question re Turn Play

This is a general question regarding a situation I sometimes run into on the turn. Specifically, it is when I am in last position with a marginal holding, and against a single opponent. For instance, suppose I have top pair with a mediocre kicker. I have Q-J suited and the flop comes Q-x-x rainbow. It's checked to me on the flop, I bet, and only one opponent calls. On the flop he checks again. Now what? I feel like I get conflicting information here. In articles by S&M and Kreiger, they frequently recommend inducing a bluff by checking behind him, then calling a bet on the river. Or if he checks again on the river, betting. That way you foil any check raise attempt on the turn, or keep him from folding if he would have when you bet. Either way you save a bet. Now, this makes a lot of sense to me. But then I read Bob Ciaffone's article in the current issue of Card Player, and he says it is almost always mandatory to bet on the turn after a single opponent checks and you have a marginal holding. Then you fold if he check raises you, are happy if he folds (because you have a marginal holding), and if he calls he will probably check the turn, and you check behind him. His rationale is that if you induce a bluff by checking behind him on the turn, then he will probably believe his hand is good and bet on the river, forcing you to call. And if you bet on the turn, and he calls, then you check after his (likely check) on the river. You avoid the check raise by folding if he attempts it. He points out that either way it is going to cost you probably only a big bet, so it might as well be spent firing on the turn (where your opponent might fold) than on the river. Again, this makes sense. My problem is that these pieces of advice seem to contradict each other. On the one hand you have a school of thought that recommends checking behind a lone opponent on the turn with a marginal holding, while the other school of thought recommends just the opposite. I tend to favor betting on the turn, but then, aren't you just costing yourself a potential big bet if your opponent folds? If he has a worse hand than yours, he might have called you on the river where he wouldn't have on the turn, and you would have collected an additional bet. But on the other hand, if his hand was a little better, you would be glad you had chased him out on the turn. I know that the old answer "it depends," is as always at issue here in settling this dilemma. My problem is that I can't think of really clear examples of where one approach would be superior over the other. Can anyone give me some examples of how they deal with this situation? I believe it is correct to bet behind a check when you have 2 overcards and no pair, but when you have top pair and mediocre kicker, it gets to be a really gray area for me and I never know exactly what to do. If anyone one has specific examples or guidelines that help to indicate which approach to take, I would love to hear them. I apologize if this does not make sense or is too abstract; I know it's pretty long. Thanks, Tim

Consider your opponent when deciding to bet on the turn . Against tricky checkraisers check, induce a river bluff and call down on the end. Against a calling station bet for value . I usually lean towards betting to avoid giving a free card.

the answer is that it depends on the player. If he is aggressive and will automatically bluff at the river with a worse hand, and there are many who will do this heads up, then you should let him bet the worse hand. If he is a weak player who is not tricky then you should just bet and let him call you down.


Pat

Savvy opponents who notice that you fold when checkraised on the turn will checkraise you on the turn. The one thing you must do is not do anything all the time. A flop of Q 6 2 and a holding of QJ in my mind is pretty strong considering there are many who automatically will raise with AQ and sometimes with KQ. I would bet the turn here everytime unless I know my opponent will bluff at the river if a scary card doesn't fall. But consider this. Your opponent holds Axs or Kxs, you check the turn and and A or K falls on the river. Bet the turn, get him out of there.

Your example is pretty weak since this hand in this situation is not "marginal", its very strong. The chances you have the better hand is very high. Lets say you have T9s and the flop is Q94, turn 8.


[1, gauge the opponent] Read Poindexter's post.


[2, size of pot] If the opponent has 6 outs then he is a 38:6 or 6.33:1 dog. This means if there is 7 bets in the pot you do NOT want him to call if you bet, and if there are 6 bets then you do. Smaller pots mean giving free cards is not that important and encouraging him to bluff weighs more. Bigger pots mean the free card IS important and you should bet and hope to win it.


[3, support your steals] If its a tight game you should expect to find yourself in this situation often, and if so should anticipate lots of opportunities to bet with no pair at all. If so, you should bet your marginal pairs since this will add equity to the times you are stealing with a gut shot. If you routinely check they can, should, and will get suspicious when you DO bet.


[4, consider your hand selection] ... I started a littany about whether you play lots of hands and will therefore find yourself with lots of vulnerable pairs, but realized I didn't know what I was talking about. I really don't know if you should be more inclined to bet T9 when you rarely play these hands when compared to when you usually play even worse hands.


- Louie

Thanks guys, I see the general consensus is to lean toward betting the turn unless against a tricky player (someone who is prone to check raising in this situation). In most of the LL games I play, the players aren't tricky, so I'd usually bet heads up.


Tim

I hate giving free cards so I bet in this situation as Bob C. says. If checkraised on turn I can consider folding. If he's drawing I have lost a bet. He may not be induced to bluff and he might anyway even without a check on the turn.


If someone suggests I start checking and calling in holdem as a standard method then I'll ignore such advice. Ther are times to check and call but this is HOLDEM not Omaha/8