25NL partypoker. Is this too aggressive

[zcahv82]

Thanks for all the replys from last post. now to this one.
Have just joined table, and second hand in, I'm SB. I have $24.50, and get A /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
MP1, MP2, CO and Button all call. I decide to call( correct? or too loose) and BB checks. Don't know anything about them. All have me covered apart from Button who has $13. Largest stack is BB with $64.80
The pot $3. Flop comes 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
I like the flop but check to see how the others play it.
BB bets out $5, MP1 calls,MP2 folds, CO calls, Button Folds,
Currently $18 in Pot. I have TPTK so call.
Turn brings 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif.
I check again, BB bets $5 again, MP1 calls, CO raises to $10 . I have $19 left, with a pot now at $38 so raise all-in( Is this far too aggressive?) BB calls, MP1 folds, CO calls.
River brings J /images/graemlins/heart.gif. They both check through, and I win on showdown. BB showed A /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. CO had 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif

So my question is
1)With 4 limpers preflop, was my completing the SB correct.
2) Was my check raise All-in, on the turn a way to lose money long term. Should I maybe have check-raised the flop, or just bet out on the flop. I don't like betting out from the SB unless I have a real strong hand, as someone might slowplay a monster.

I couldn't really put anyone on a hand. Maybe BB on a 9, but when people limp in and there is no raising preflop, in this limit they could have anything! I would really like to see how others would have played it. Would anyone fold on the turn when CO raises it to $10. I did think of folding at the time, but I thought the pot was to big and the adrenaline kicked in and I went all-in.
Thanks in advance

(P.S this is to apologise if I have confused the hell out of you with my CO and Button. To be honest I don't know what CO means. Is it the button? I think it is the person on the buttons right. Does the table go round like so on a ten person table
SB, BB, UTG1, UTG2, UTG3, UTG4?, CO3, CO3, CO2, CO1, Button.
I like to think I can play better poker than my current knowledge. Have only been playing for 6 months, and haven't read any books, just what is on this site. Thanks in advance again)

ZC

[crockpot]

i personally wouldn't make this call preflop out of position, but if you play the hand well it isn't too bad.

you should have raised on the flop. way too many turn cards can kill your hand.

[ZeeJustin]

Easy call preflop IMO. As for postflop action, it's tough IMO, and I'm not sure what I would do.

[ZeeJustin]

Hrmm, since I disagreed with crockpot, I should probably explain my position.

There are 4 other limpers, and the big blind. you are getting 11 to 1 odds to call. Assuming you are better than your opponents (which I'm sincerely hoping you are since you are talking about 25NL at party), an ace or a 9 will often be enough for you to win the pot. If you flop two pair, you will almost definately be able to check raise for a good amount. If you flop trips, you are obviously in heaven as well. There is also the outside nut-flush possibility, but that's not too relevant since your hand isn't suited, and the table is probably rather aggressive.

Long story short, your pot odds are insane, and without domination issues, you have no reason not to call IMHO.

[crockpot]

i agree that good players can make this call, but my no-limit philosophy is always based on a "stay out of trouble" approach. i may cost myself some profit this way, but it keeps my variance down.

also i should add that i don't play no-limit much.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I might consider a large check-raise on the flop, but NEVER a check-call. That was your big mistake here. You want to get someone with perhaps a worse nine or a draw to bet, but then shut them out with a large check-raise. Your hand is very vulnerable, so shutting people out should be a high priority. You'd like to get some of their money first tho, so check-raise would be my choice, and a LARGE check-raise, perhaps even all-in at that, but no less than 3x their bet.

al

[zcahv82]

Thanks for all your replys.
I liked your reply best Al Capone. Seems to me that you should bet Very large with TPTK, on the flop as long as it isn't to dangreous. So I tried it today, was this correct?
25NL 10 people table PP.
I'm in BB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.UTG calls, MP raises to $2( has me covered) Button calls, and I call. I have them all covered. $8 in pot.
Flop comes K /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I check, UTG check, MP raises to $3, button folds, I raise to $15. All Fold. I win. Correct way to play TPTK? I raised a lot to charge any flush draws. Winning the pot is better then losing it so I'm quite happy with taking it down then. What do you think Al capone?
Thanks for your advice, am really getting to understand it now( am waiting for the replys to tell me I should have raised them all again pre-flop, and how rubbish I am....lol but that is the only way I can improve.)
Thanks again
ZC

[Zag]

I totally agree with Al Capone, but I am concerned that you may have missed a point. His point was that, while you had TPTK (and probably best hand at that point), it is important to note that your hand was vulnerable. Any TJQK will freeze you out. It is the vulnerability that makes it so important that you shut out the other players now.

That said, I think you did the right thing with your AK, too. It was also vulnerable, due to the flush and straight draws that might have been out there. However, you didn't state the stack sizes. If you and MP both have more than, say, $100, then this bet was too high. In that case, you would actually like to make a bet that the flush draw almost has odds to draw at, and then make him face another bet on the turn for which he doesn't have odds. Assuming that you had less than $50, then your bet was fine.

Back to the vulnerability issue: Suppose that you had AK and the flop was K 8 3 rainbow. Now you are less worried about the draw outs, because no one can really have a lot of them. Sure KQ might spike a Q, but essentially you consider this hand not to be very vulnerable. This is a time that you might just bet out, and let a worse king come after you, or you might check-call the flop and check-raise the turn, or you might still check-raise the flop, but not so much.

The point is that any hand which is behind you is a lot farther behind you (than if it is a straight or flush draw) so you can afford to give somewhat more tempting odds to keep him in. Personally, I would usually (90%) bet out in this case, because you are more likely to be called by a worse king than if you check-raise.

On the other other hand, against a more passive opponent, I would probably bet out with the vulnerable TPTK, because I am deathly afraid of giving a free card. The check-raise when vulnerable is only if you are dead certain he will bet.

Against this same passive opponent (unless he is also very loose), it is the non-vulnerable TPTK with which I would go for the check-raise. A check behind is pretty safe, because there are very few cards that could improve him enough to beat me, if he is already behind.

The check-raise in this case serves two puposes: first, if he does bet out with, say, KQ, and gets check-rasied, it will "teach" him that passive is better -- no more betting sub-standard hands after Zag checks. Second, if he actually has me beaten already, this might freeze him up. Suppose he flopped a small set and I check-raise: a passive player will start to worry about a larger set and might check behind on the turn. If he reraises or bets again on the turn, I can lay down my TPTK with reasonable confidance.

[Utah]

Preflop is correct.

You simply cannot check/call the flop. Hand is very vulnerable out of position. 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,J,Q,K are all trouble cards for you.

Leading out is not a great option because if you are called you are in the same boat as above. Overbetting the pot is not a great option, since why bet a lot to win a little pot with that many people behind you. The flop is also not a good stealing flop.

Check-raise all-in looks like your best option if you are going to play. However, with the pot at $18 you cant exert enough pressure. also, BB overbets the pot by almost double and he gets two callers. Look out. Folding cant be terrrible here.

I would fold the turn.

my 2 cents

[cjx]

I won't comment on the hand as the other posters probably have more to offer than me anyway, but I didn't notice anyone clarify what CO was... to the best of my knowledge it means Cut Off and refers to the position to the right of the Button. I don't know if there is an official standard, but typically if I were to refer to hand positions it'd go more like this: SB, BB, UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2, MP (middle position), MP, MP, CO, Button. Anyway, hope that clears some stuff up.

Now, if someone could tell me what the hell YAFIFA stands for... that'd be nice... as far as I can tell it seems like a generally derogatory statement, but it doesn't really bother me in any case.

cjx

[zcahv82]

....but for this situation, was it played right?

Firstly I must thank you all for your replys. Very imformative, and now -thanks to cjx- can describe the table prerfectly.
This hand came up and is very similar to the others mentioned.

I'm in SB with A /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif I have $36, and have all the players covered. Main opponent has $14 and is BB.
UTG1 calls, UTG2 Calls, MP calls, CO calls, I complete and BB checks.
Flop brings 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif..( where have I seen this before... and I know what to do now!!!)
So I check and BB bets $2 into a $3 pot. UTG1 calls, UTG2 calls, MP calls, CO folds, and I raise to $15($11 dollar Pot). BB calls all- in. All others fold. I was thinking he was on a draw for the flush. He actually had 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. And I got no help on turn and river.

I didn't mind losing but in the long run, If I was to do this all the time, with say A8, A9 etc I'm assuming I will be a long term winner. Although I know I would be very predictable from the blinds and if I played with the same people they would catch on, but I don't have to worry about that at PARTY. Please feel free to critise /images/graemlins/grin.gif.


ZC

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You played that TPTK fine. Remember tho, A9 with a nine is much more vulnerable than AK with a king.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You went into more detail than I did, but I agree with you. Well thought out reasons.

al

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree that good players can make this call, but my no-limit philosophy is always based on a "stay out of trouble" approach. i may cost myself some profit this way, but it keeps my variance down.


[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, i agree with taking that approach to this hand as compared to our suited rags topic. Due to the nature of big cards, i.e. reserve implied odds, not multi-way strong and the added difficulty of playing the hand.