Need feedback on calling with a scary board

[Aximillian]

I'm still thinking about this hand from last night. I have to know how some others would play it. I've been at this Paradise $5/$10 table for a couple hours and my image is pretty good. When I'm in a pot, I'm usually in controll, raising pre-flop and dominating the rest of the hand.

Delt KcQc in CO. Folded to MP who calls, I raise, button cold calls, rest fold. 3 see flop.

*** FLOP *** : [ Ah Jh Js ]

Spooky. MP bets out. Now MP seems to be an ok player but I've seen him bet into scary flops with just high cards. I don't fear the boat, because he would have re-raised preflop with AJ. He may have a either a Jack or an Ace or a flush/straight draw. Either way, I call because I have outs to make a straight and I still have two overcards to the Jacks. Button folds. Heads up at the turn.

*** TURN *** : [ Ah Jh Js ] [ 2d ]

Blank, He bets, I call. Based on my previous thoughts, I'm in the same position as the flop. Does anyone think I should raise here to see where he stands? I don't think I want to call a re-raise and that's the main reason why I called.

*** RIVER *** : [ Ah Jh Js 2d ] [ 6d ]

Another blank. He bets, I call again...

I'd like to hear some other peoples reads on this hand before I say how it turned out. Please tell me if I made any mistakes and how I could play it otherwise. I know it seems calling stationesque, but this is not how I've been playing up to this point and I also thought it would be a good place to loosen my image a bit. How do people feel about this type of thinking?



I could also point out that I'm well ahead of the game at this point (almost doubled my money) and I took that into consideration as well while I was calling. Do others do this type of thinking for the future when their up?

[slavic]

Look this is just about the worst flop ever for you. You can't beat much more than a semi-bluff.

If you just feel compelled to continue, semi bluff raise the flop and see what happens. Otherwise I think a fold is in order. AJ,KJ, JT, QJ are all limping hands.

[ThingDo]

I would put in one raise on the flop... and if he calls, I'd bet the turn and fold to a check raise... if he raises you at any point during the hand I think you have an easy fold.. but I'm weak tight. I might even consider checking behind on the turn if he calls my raise.

[MaxPower]

Just because you are up for the session, that is no reason to play loose.

There are many many reasons why you should fold on the flop. You don't have odds (about 7:1)to draw to your gutshot. Your implied odds are not there. Even though hitting your gutshot is 11:1, you would need better pot odds than that because you may lose even when you hit. Most of your outs are tainted. There is still a player to act behind you who might raise. Even if you beat the bettor you still have to beat the button.

You are in terrible situation on the flop and you should fold.

Once you've called the flop, calling on the turn is terrible. I think the best option is to fold, but against the right player a semi-bluff raise is possible.

It is too expensive to play the hand this way in order to influence your image.

[Barry]

I had a hand a little like that last night. I had QQ and we got the same exact flop. The flop was checked around and I folded to his turn bet. He was nice and showed me his AJo.

I think that you should do the same here and fold on the flop. You raised preflop, MP is betting into you; there is an overcard and a pair on the board. All you have is a gutshot str8 draw. Your T could make a boat for MP. There will be lots of other times where you can make an image play; this is not one of them.

Regarding your thoughts about calling because "you were ahead". I don't let that factor alone effect my decisions. If however, I have only shown down strong hands and I'm getting lots of respect, I will bluff a little more frequently.

[James282]

This should be an easy fold on the flop. If he has a jack, having overcards to the jacks does not help you at all..unless you want a runner-runner full house. You are getting 6.5-1 on your straight draw, and even if you hit it you have to figure that, if your read is correct and he has not already filled up, JT is the most likely hand for him to have(since you have a K and a Q). The likelihood that he could fill up effectively eliminates your implied odds, so a call here is incorrect. My question his, what hands do you hope he has here that you can beat? The only hands that it is even possible for him to have are KQ, KT, and if he sucks, QT. If he has an underpair to the jacks then you are drawing to overcards and a gut-shot(unless he has TT). If he has an Ace, then you are drawing to a gut-shot...but the fact that he bet into you on every street probably means he has you beaten, especially in the way that you describe your table image. If he is a very weak player, and doesn't have a jack, a raise might make him fold on the flop or the turn, but in most circumstances, I'm going to choose a better spot.

Calling on the river seems very pointless to me, as you only beat KT and QT of the playable hands he could possibly have. There is no reason to throw money away just because you are up for the session...and this doesn't make you look loose, it makes you look like a true-blue calling station.
-James

edit: This is what I get for writing a response during the beginning of a study hall, kids keep coming up and making me sign passes and distracting me! Looks like Max wrote basically the same stuff I was writing, great minds think alike? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[lil']

I call because I have outs to make a straight and I still have two overcards to the Jacks
Uhhh...overcards to the jacks? There are two jacks, not one, so your overcards (which aren't really even overcards because there is also an ace)don't mean squat.

This flop sucks. The way to play it is to fold the flop and get 'em next time.

[lil']

Thingdo,

You're catching fancy play syndrome here. The flop totally and completely missed him, and the pot isn't big enough to go on.

[Aximillian]

Well, he did indeed have only KT and I took the pot. I realize that I got lucky. But I also said that I've seen this guy bet into pots with nothing. Luckily my impression was right this time. I can see how this was a bad hand to play loose on, since there were so many other hands that could beat me. I'm also thinking that a bluff raise on either the flop or the turn would have probably been a better play for me, since my hand was so weak against the board. Then if I ended up winning right there, my image wouldn't have been effected.

[lil']

I'm also thinking that a bluff raise on either the flop or the turn would have probably been a better play for me, since my hand was so weak against the board.
If you bluff raise the turn, you are committing a lot of money on the off chance that nobody can beat you. I think you have to bluff raise the flop or fold it and move on.

[Aximillian]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also thinking that a bluff raise on either the flop or the turn would have probably been a better play for me, since my hand was so weak against the board.
If you bluff raise the turn, you are committing a lot of money on the off chance that nobody can beat you. I think you have to bluff raise the flop or fold it and move on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, that's more of what I was thinking. Thanks

[Nate tha' Great]

I think you either need to fold on the flop or, if you think there is a high probability that MP is bluffing or betting a flush draw, 3-bet the flop.

If he's caught anything on the board, you're drawing to four outs against one opponent, and those outs are not guaranteed to be clean. That's not a good position in which to be calling.

My guess is that he had ace-no-kicker, which you are still way behind.

[Aximillian]

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Now MP seems to be an ok player but I've seen him bet into scary flops with just high cards.

Think about this statement for a minute. Which "just high cards" could he be betting into a preflop raiser that you can beat?

I'm well ahead of the game at this point (almost doubled my money) and I took that into consideration as well while I was calling.

This is a major leak.

Blank, He bets, I call. Based on my previous thoughts, I'm in the same position as the flop. Does anyone think I should raise here to see where he stands? I don't think I want to call a re-raise and that's the main reason why I called.

What position? What 2 cards can he hold that you're even drawing live against? OK, if he's aggressive enough to bet TT into this board you have 6 outs. If you don't want to raise because you fear a reraise, why are you even putting one bet in?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I would put in one raise on the flop....but I'm weak tight.

Weak-tight players do not raise KQ when bet into on a AJJ board.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
dominating the rest of the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Axi, watch out for 'Positive' tilt, it used to grab me all the time.

[ QUOTE ]
because he would have re-raised preflop with AJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean he limp-re-raises w/AJ or does it mean that he would have open-raised w/AJ?

[ QUOTE ]
Either way, I call because I have outs to make a straight and I still have two overcards to the Jacks

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where you have to take several things into consideration. First you have to ask yourself some questions:

Are my outs clean?
What are my outs?
What are my pot odds?
Do I have the correct odds to call?

I see you don't fear the full-house; which is a likely assesment. However, you are getting 8:1 on your flop call and if he has an ace you'll need the gut shot Queen to win which is an 11:1 shot. In addition, if he limped w/a hand like QJs you are drawing dead. I think you have to fold on the flop here.

Now, if this player is capable of making a move on you here by betting into a the preflop raiser on a scary board, then raise the flop and represent something big. Other than that I think you have a clear fold.

[ QUOTE ]
I could also point out that I'm well ahead of the game at this point (almost doubled my money) and I took that into consideration as well while I was calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I've expected, you've got a case of the "I'm running-good" positive-tilt here. Try not to let weather you are up or down influence your play.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
But I also said that I've seen this guy bet into pots with nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you should have raised the flop and folded to a re-raise.

Peace,
JT

[ThingDo]

Wooooops! Misread the hand.... god... this is what happens when yous stay up all night.

[ThingDo]

I read KK... jesus christ. /images/graemlins/frown.gif