UB - JTs, taking control of the hand

[RockLobster]

UB 1/2 (October bonus-whoring tour continues), this was a pretty passive table, with about 38% seeing the flop.

I limp with JsTs UTG. Two limpers, then MP raises. LMP, CO, Button, SB all cold call. BB folds, rest call. Eight (wow) to the flop:

[8s-5d-Td]

SB checks, I decide to bet. We lose four (including the PF raiser who probably didn't feel good about his AKo /images/graemlins/smirk.gif). Four to the turn:

[8s-5d-Td] 9d

Flush & straight draws may have hit, lets see if someone has it. I bet, no raise, we lose one. Three to the river:

[8s-5d-Td 9d] Tc

I bet, one fold, SB calls. I take it. SB had 44.

How would you guys have played this?

[brian0729]

I like the play, Rock

Flop, bet out to protect your vulnerable TP, nice seeing four drop

Turn, scare card if I ever saw one, nice bet

River, nice card easy bet nice win

[Aaron Lovi]

Hi RockLobster,

I think you are making a rather bad mistake not checking this flop. You can check with the intention of raising (if noone else raises behind you after someone else bets). You can check and fold if there is a bet, a raise, and some cold-callers (or some other line of action that looks bad).

A large mistake that a lot of players make in these loose games is that they call a bet with a marginal hand when several other players are left to act behind them. They call that bet because noone punishes them--there aren't enough check-raises.

If your check ends up giving a free card that beats you, a bet would not likely have protected your hand in any case.

Your checkraise will not protect your hand either. But, you make the weak draws pay a higher price up front than they bargained for. So those times your hand does stand up but you can't bet on the end (for various reasons), you've already extracted enough chips up front to cover all the times that you lose and end up paying off bets at the end.

It sounds like a small point, but that extra flop bet up front is worth more than you would expect.

[icepoker]

I'd play it exactly like you did.

[RockLobster]

Hi Aaron--

Thanks for the reply.

My bet was designed to protect my hand. I bet since the PF raiser was closer to my left, I thought he'd raise and drive a few out. Going for the c/r myself would have helped to build a pot when I was getting reverse-implied odds, so I didn't think that was a good idea. But with this many people, I did consider checking and seeing what the heck transpires.

I posted this hand to get some opinions, situations like this are never that clear to me.
Thanks again--

[Homer]

Rock, with the PFR directly to your left I think betting out is better as the PFR will often raise his OC's, and you can use him as your unwitting partner in crime. With the PFR directly to your right, check-raising is best. In this case, there are a few opponents on each side between you and PFR, so whether you should bet out or check-raise isn't quite as clear. I would probably check-raise since:

1) A three-bet from the PFR is a more reliable indicator of an overpair than is a raise (so if you checkraise and are three-bet, you might be able to check-fold the river if you don't improve)

2) If PFR bets and there is a raise behind him, you might be able to lay your hand down, as you are likely outkicked (obviously this depends to some extent on who in particular raises)

-- Homer

[RockLobster]