I disagree with Mason and David, AGAIN!!!

[Redhotman]

In the Loose Section of HEFAP, David states that when playing in loose games it is best not to mull over your decisions. Mulling, he says, shows your opponents that you actually bother to think about the way you play. This in return will make them think more, and thus play better against you.

The majority of loose players I see online play as such. I have a pair: Bet. I have a Straight Draw: Bet, I have 3 of a Kind: Bet.

When they see you mull over decisions, they take it that you dont have anyhting- If you did you wouldn't have to think about anything. Because they dont have to think about anything, they assume you do not think either.
Your thinking to them, constitutes bluffing.

I have implored this strategy online at the limits of 2/4, 3/6 and I hav found that it works wonders.
Opinions?

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
In the Loose Section of HEFAP, David states that when playing in loose games it is best not to mull over your decisions. Mulling, he says, shows your opponents that you actually bother to think about the way you play. This in return will make them think more, and thus play better against you.

The majority of loose players I see online play as such. I have a pair: Bet. I have a Straight Draw: Bet, I have 3 of a Kind: Bet.

When they see you mull over decisions, they take it that you dont have anyhting- If you did you wouldn't have to think about anything. Because they dont have to think about anything, they assume you do not think either.
Your thinking to them, constitutes bluffing.

I have implored this strategy online at the limits of 2/4, 3/6 and I hav found that it works wonders.
Opinions?




[/ QUOTE ]

My opinion is that you overestimate your ability online. Delays are commonplace in online poker, people are surfing the net, taking a piss, watching TV or playing 3 tables at once. If you place any value at all into a delayed bet online you are thinking several levels too high for the game. If a player is loose he will make the call whether you delay, play quickly, sing a song or insert pins into your voodoo doll while playing online. That is why they are called LOOSE!

Besides David was discussing live play in a B&M room.

[Nottom]

The only online tell I put any real faith in is the "auto-raise" although the "auto-call" is generally pretty good as well.

Another one that sometimes is useful is when you are next to someone in a blind who uses the check/fold button a lot. Its really useful heads up in a NL tourney because you know a min raise is all you need to push them out.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I tend to agree with you here, with the caveat that S&M are talking about live games. Online, the hesitation could be the result of an internet delay, or multiple table play, or anything. It won't have the effect they discuss.

Even live, if you have to think a bit to make sure your decision is correct, do it. Most opponents won't notice unless you do it all the time.

I would say though, that if you're constantly counting the pot and obviously doing calculations in your head, someone *will* notice. But short of that, I think they're overstating the effect.

[Mike Gallo]

In the Loose Section of HEFAP, David states that when playing in loose games it is best not to mull over your decisions. Mulling, he says, shows your opponents that you actually bother to think about the way you play. This in return will make them think more, and thus play better against you.

Mason and David discuss playing in a casino. They do not mention "online" casinos. For the record, I find their information spot on.


Opinions?

You have a lot to say without a lot to back it up.

I have read two posts of yours that you discredit Mason and Sklansky, and you distort their information.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

On this one I tend to agree with redhotman. Most decisions in poker are straightforward, so you shouldn't have to take much time very often. If, however, a close decision comes up, I believe that worrying that "alerting" your opposition that thinking is part of the game will harm you is seeing monsters under the bed as long as you don't do it too much. I think rushing and making a bad decision will have much more impact on your profit than the off chance that somebody at the table will suddenly play better.

It's been said often that LL players don't pay a whole lot of attention to things other than their cards. Well, if they're not really paying attention, they're not going to notice that twice in 3 hours you took 15 seconds to ponder a decision.

I'm not saying S&M are wrong, per se, it's just that different pieces of advice have differing levels of impact.

[Mike Gallo]

If, however, a close decision comes up, I believe that worrying that "alerting" your opposition that thinking is part of the game will harm you is seeing monsters under the bed as long as you don't do it too much. I think rushing and making a bad decision will have much more impact on your profit than the off chance that somebody at the table will suddenly play better.

Perhaps by delaying your opponent will recognize that you take the game seriously. This will let your opponents take shots at you later on in a session.

I find myself taking too long, and once in a while an opponent will attempt to get me off of a hand.

I agree with S and M here. Do not let the live ones know you take it seriously. Let them think you want to gamble with them.

The poster posted out of context.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
I find myself taking too long, and once in a while an opponent will attempt to get me off of a hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true. I play in an extremely loose home game and we used to have one player who was tight-aggresive and would frequently pause to think. Players started taking shots at him all the time.

Online it doesn't matter because a pause can mean a lot of different things. But what does matter is when people talk about things like pot-odds, position, outs, etc. When someone mentions pot-odds, I usually say something like, "What are odds?"

I think S&M's point is that many people who play loose are capable of playing better but don't do so for a variety of reasons. You don't want to do anything that will inspire them to play their A game.

[Barry]

Also, I think that they also mention in this section "if you have to think, it's close" and therefore it doesn't matter much which choice that you make, so make it fast.

[Mike Gallo]

I think S&M's point is that many people who play loose are capable of playing better but don't do so for a variety of reasons. You don't want to do anything that will inspire them to play their A game.

Excellent point Max.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

"if you have to think, it's close" and therefore it doesn't matter much which choice that you make, so make it fast.

I'll concede that point, though I still have a problem with saying LL players really don't pay attention *except* in this one situation.

[MaxPower]

That does sound like an inconsistancy.

I think there are different types of loose low limit players. They are many who don't pay attention to anything. There are others who pay attention to a lot things, but still make the wrong play. I constantly play with players who can read other people's hands but don't realize how much of a dog they are (or don't care).

Then there are some players who notice how tight you are playing but will give action anyway because they just can't help themselves.

[Redhotman]

A couple of responses stated that a loose player "will call no matter what". I dont think this is true. For instance i play against some players that are not nessecary bad, but just make loose calls here and there. They see the flop with hands like J7s or A9. They also tend to call too many river bets. Against these types of players I think waiting is the optimal strategy.