Pot Limit Omaha High Query

[Baltiman]

The game was was 8 handed, and most players very loose, and aggressive. I has QJJ8 single suited.
UTG limped in for €5. I limped in. Next player made it €25. Three more players called the raise, UTG called and I called. Therefore the pot was €150.

I had €550 remaining. The flop came Jc 8s 3c. This gave me top set. I had no clubs in my hand. UTG bet the €150, leaving him with only €50. I just called the bet !
The pre-flop raiser folded, and there was one more caller ( a loose aggressive player).
I put him on a flush draw. He had about €1500.
I put UTG on a flush draw and a straight draw. He is a knowledgeable player. The next card was the Ac which completed a flush. UTG bet his last €50. I called and the loose player raised €350 more. I folded.
The river card was 6s, and the loose player had the nuts i.e. a King high flush.
UTG also had a flush.

After the hand, UTG asked me what I had, I said 3 Jacks. He was amazed and said that I should have reraised all-in on the flop. A player on my left who has also reads a lot said that there was no question about it – I should have definitely reraised all-in on the flop.
I still think that I was right to check on the flop although I'm not 100% certain.
I had intended to bet my remaining stack on the turn if a club, a 7,9,10 or Q did not come.
I reckoned that betting the turn was the better long term play.

Was I right or wrong ?

[Graham]

Balt,

You shoulda pumped the flop from the get-go, I reckon. You want to drive out the weaker draws that can school together against your set, hopefully leaving less cards that can kill your hand. It also takes you out of guessing whether that turn card made your opps hand - esp considering you're in early position.

Whether players behind call or fold, you're happy pumping the flop. Either increase the chances of your hand holding up or get value on your money while you're best - and can still redraw even if they improve on the turn.

Also, how much more are you likely to win if you play slow on the flop and the turn then pairs board? Often, not much. Get it in while you're favourite and your opponents are willing to play against you.

I'm a big fan of playing best set hard on the flop, as you can maybe tell... /images/graemlins/shocked.gif


All this is jmho, of course.

G

[Baltiman]

[ QUOTE ]
You want to drive out the weaker draws that can school together against your set, hopefully leaving less cards that can kill your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Graham

I put the UTG on a straight draw and flush draw, and I couldn't knock him out as he only had €50 left. So there was no point in knocking out any other straight or flush draws. In fact, I wanted someone with a flush or straight draw to call on the flop, which is what actually happened. I wasn't a favourite against a flush and 13 outer straight draw on the flop, os I didn't want to commit any more money at that point. If a non-threatening card came on the turn, I would then be favourite, at which point I would go all in.
This is my thinking anyway. Am I wrong in my figuring ?

[Graham]

It's hard for one hand to get ahead of a set. Something like an 18 out hand is required - basically a wrap and the flush draw.

Your flop Jc8s3c. Even the worst possible opposing HU hand for you here, something like 7s9sTcQc, is only 19 outs, only a little ahead of you (54%). You'd still take the race HU then 'cos of the dead money. And who says he's got that? He's likely got something lesser or may just as likely be pushing the likes of nut flush plus gutshot. Holding back your betting reduces your win when the turn pairs the board and gets you into the kind of sticky spot you got into on the turn where you were forced to fold cos you had too much left in front of you.

I don't think you can play scared in PLO; you've got to shove the money in, even if you know that maybe half the time you don't get it back.

You're never dead if you're in the lead with top set on the flop. I want that money in now!

Again, just my own (possibly high variance) opinion.

G

[Rolf Slotboom]

Dear Baltiman,
You asked me to respond to this thread, so I will. It's going to be a short reply, as Graham has summed things up perfectly. Considering the board, your hand, the stack sizes and also taking into account the effects of the possible turn cards (board pairs: you might not make the money you would have made by moving in on the flop, draw gets completed: you may get bet out of the pot, when river may have given you the winner) there is no question you should have moved all-in, exactly for the reasons Graham gave. Any other play than moving in would simply have been a bad mistake. Actually, in SOME instances it is correct to simply call with your top set on the flop (for instance with very deep money, or when you're up against a habitual bluffer who you don't want to take out of the lead) but in this case just calling was clearly wrong.
Hope this helps,
Rolf.

[Baltiman]

Thanks guys
I guess I'll have to acknowledge my bad play on this hand.
I did a rough EV calculation and though what I did was correct, but
obviously there's a flaw in my calculations !
Graham, you're absolutely right - you can't play scared in PLO.
If I thought shoving all in was the better EV play, then that's what I
would have done.
I was sorta hoping somebody would come back with a comparison of the
two plays over the long term.

Thanks again