folding the 2nd nuts

[jerrybai125]

playing 4/8 at bicycle, loose passive table. I get red J's UTG+1, UTG limps, i raise, blinds and UTG call.

Flop KdTd5d

checks to me and i bet, sb calls, bb folds, UTG goes all in for 7, we both call 3 more.

turn: Ad

sb bets out...... now i know i have the 2nd nuts and i have good odds that he doesnt have a Q, but im thinking to myself he cant be bluffing there is no side pot, and would he be betting a 9 or lower diamond for value?? This player seems like a loose straightforward player, i have not seen him bluff once, he just chases a little too much. I think for a pretty long time and finally i fold. Is this a terrible fold??? I felt so sure he had a Q and I am positive my image at the table is not a folder.

River: 7d

sb flips over A2... and chops it with UTG who had AK... and i just sit there feeling stupid.

[Brian]

Hi jerrybai,

Just because there isn't any money in the side pot, why does that mean he isn't bluffing you? He may think that because the UTG is all-in that he has nothing, and if he just gets you out of it then he stands a good shot at beating UTG. Never rule out the possibility of a bluff even if one makes no sense at all to you. People love to bluff even if it seems to you that there isn't any point in one.

Considering the size of the pot, I think that this is a pretty terrible fold. At the very least I would call him down and make him show me the Queen of Diamonds, if not even Raise the Turn myself.

-Brian

[inkstain]

At most of the low-limit California Hold'em games that I've played in, most people don't seem to understand the concept of bluffing when there is an all-in player. I really don't think the player was thinking "my ace might beat the all-in player if he has no diamond, so I'll make the other guy fold a small diamond to give myself a chance to win the whole pot."

Like you said, there are lots of plays made which make no sense whatsoever.

[ThingDo]

Even with your read I don't think there is any reason not to think you have the best hand here.. I think this is a terrible fold... you should be seeing a showdown here quite often. I would raise the turn here 100% of the time.

[pokertronic]

[ QUOTE ]
Even with your read I don't think there is any reason not to think you have the best hand here.. I think this is a terrible fold... you should be seeing a showdown here quite often. I would raise the turn here 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i once folded KK witha 4 flush on the board on the turn and the jackass shows me a nothing hand. i almost died. i think people like to bluff at pots with 4 flushes for some reason.

[GuyOnTilt]

First off, terrible fold. However, I don't agree with everybody telling you to raise the turn. I think raising the turn is horrible as well. Your best course of action is to call the turn bet, and then raise the river if he bets, and bet if he checks.

[GuyOnTilt]

you should be seeing a showdown here quite often.

Wrong. You should be seeing a showdown here 100% of the time.

I would raise the turn here 100% of the time.

What does raising the turn accomplish?

[ThingDo]

At the tables I play at people call me down if they have 2 pair or trips. Why not get the extra bet in while you have the best hand. More often than not a lesser hand will call down here. At least in my experience.

[GuyOnTilt]

Why not get the extra bet in while you have the best hand.

Because you have no real fear of being outdrawn here, except against a set, which is the last thing I'd put my opponent on here. If you're ahead in the hand, then you don't want to push your opponent off of a worse one. If you're behind in the hand, then raising the turn won't accomplish anything either. It's far better in this instance to call the turn bet and wait for the river to raise. Here's why:

If your opponent is on a bluff, let him bluff away an extra bet. If he has two pair or just a pair of aces, he'll most likely fold to a turn raise, which you don't want. If he has a smaller diamond, he might muck it on the turn, which is again something you don't want.

If your opponent has the nut diamond, then when you raise on the river, you'll get 3-bet and call down. So you will lose the same amount you would've if you'd raised the turn when you're behind, but will gain an extra BB most of the times you're ahead. That's why waiting for the river to raise is the correct play.

[crockpot]

if you can find me a poster here who has never seen a person bluff into a dry sidepot, i would be impressed. maybe these people don't understand how a sidepot works, or maybe they just derive satisfaction from making people fold the best hand even though they win nothing. either way, never rule out the possibility that this is a bluff unless you know the opponent is a good player.

i wouldn't fold here unless the opponent is a total rock, but i wouldn't raise the turn either. calling him down looks like a good play.