Simple flop decision and is the alternative close?

[Rick Nebiolo]

This flop situation came from the $2-$3 blind restricted ($100) buy in no limit holdem game. Hero has $170 in the big blind holding Jd-9d. Four players limp for $3 and the SB calls for a dollar. Hero checks. The game is pretty good. About half of Hero's five opponents are reasonably solid for this limit and the rest are very loose and somewhat aggressive. It's a typical lineup for this game.

The flop comes Td-7d-4h. Hero has an inside straight and a flush draw with an overcard. The SB checks. Answer the following poll but follow on elaboration is welcome.




Thanks in advance,

Rick

[1800GAMBLER]

I really don't like checking this at all. These hands are perfect for being hyper aggressive with. Bet the pot and hope to get raised then push all in is a dream with these, more so with those abnormal blinds.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I picked "check, but betting the pot is a reasonable alternative."

I say this because of hero's large stack, and his being out of position. If he checks, he might face a bet. But if he bets, he might face a much bigger raise, which would be a less appealing alternative. This is less of a factor if everyone in the hand is at or near the $100 max buy-in. Now he does have a ton of outs, and is probably a favorite to win the hand. However, I'd still rather try to draw at it cheaply, rather than paying off a raise, which he will probably have to do if he bets and gets raised. Try to draw cheap, then get your money after you make the hand.

A semi-bluff bet is not a terrible choice, but I would tend to check in EP.

al

[bunky9590]

I lead at this pot like 90% of the time, but then again, I would bet at that pot with a lot less than that if I felt i could steal. With the two suited board, and str8 potential, a steal would not be likely, but I bet the pot in this situation. If I get raised, push all in on him and put him to the tough decision. Youre not in that bad of shape.

When in doubt , stay aggressive.

[Lou Krieger]

Rick...you never pose easy questions, do you?

If I'm gonna bet this one at all, a raise in the amount of $15 seems appropriate, since you can still get away from it with minimal damage if someone plays back at you with a big raise and you read them for a big hand.

Let's see, there's only one flop card in the playing zone, but a striaght draw is highly possible and so is a flush (and any other flush draw stands a good chance of being bigger than our hero's).

With a bunch of limpers and the small blind active in addition to our hero, it seems you'd want to keep in all players with a lesser hand or worse draw than our hero's flush draw, though you probably won't eliminate anyone with a bigger hand or a nut flush draw, especially if he has other backdoor possibilities with it too.

I suppose as I write this, I'm talking myself into a smallish raise, just to build a pot that includes all the lesser hands in it. A big raise would be a good idea only if our hero had an excellent read on all of his opponents, though there seem to be too many of them to assume that our hero will eliminate all of them enough of the time to make that kind of committment worthwhile.

OK. I guess I raise in this situation for about $15 -- though checking it around is OK too, depending on how I read the opposition.

The trouble with this hand is that while it offers a good deal of possibilities, you'll seldom be sure of where you're at, and that always seems to constrain the amount of money you'll win when you make your hand (and your opponents make lessers hands) and your hand is good enough to hold up.
_____
Lou Krieger
Raise your game with Lou Krieger,author of "Poker For Dummies" at Royal Vegas Poker.
http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou

[muck_nutz]

[ QUOTE ]

Let's see, there's only one flop card in the playing zone


[/ QUOTE ]

You realize this isn't limit HE, right? You have a gaggle of limpers in a small blind NLHE game (although the blinds are large relative to the max buy in). Any pair is "in the playing zone" for a most players. Esp. if limped multiway pots like this are common.

[muck_nutz]

[ QUOTE ]

Youre not in that bad of shape.


[/ QUOTE ]

What hands do you think you are going to get action on in this pot? Which of those are you in good shape to?

Rick didn't tell us the stack sizes so its hard to say much. But if he gets action from $100 stack then his $15 bet will either get raised all in or close to it (pot is to $60). He won't have any chance to put the other person to the test. Even if they all have the same $170 stack then when he comes back over the top he will be raising ~$95 into a $135 pot. He will be offering a reasonable price to lots of hands and giving his deeper opponents the chance of getting away from it with only some damage or putting him all in if they are ahead. I see little that will fold that is ahead of him in a small game (you *might* knock out Qd4d).

[tewall]

My post went in the ether. I'm the "other" vote in the poll. My thought was to check planning to c/r all in if bet into.

[Matt Flynn]

Rick,

I strongly prefer to check. Against 5 opponents with that field, you are very likely to get a call or a raise. If you get raised, you don't have a strong enough hand to want it heads up. If you get called, you are out of position on the tun with a big pot. No thanks.

Matt

[Rolf Slotboom]

Dear Rick,
If I'm not mistaken, there's about $15 in the pot now, the "hero" you mention has something like $160 or $170 on the BB with J9s, and ten-seven of his suit on the flop. So, against a hand like top pair he would have something like 12 outs twice, and if a jack would also give him the pot he might even have more outs. In fact, even against a set our hero is not in that bad a shape. So, in my view it is no option to bet and then fold to a big raise, as someone suggested - this hand is too strong with two cards to come to lay down against something like ace-ten. This being a no-limit hold'em game, I would have added the interesting option of moving all-in to your poll. I'm not saying this is necessarily the best play, but it is certainly an interesting option considering the stack sizes, our hero's position and the possible hands his opponents may be holding. If someone holds the ace-high flush draw, he will almost certainly have to fold. If someone holds top pair or an overpair, he will almost certainly have to fold simply because the excessively large bet. I guess only a set can safely call here... but then again, against a set our hero is not that far behind (plus, a set is pretty hard to come by). Anyway, I think there are quite a few possible ways to play this hand (for instance check-raise all-in to make someone with top pair lay down his hand), and by no means do I think making this type of massive bet is a great no-limit play, especially with so little money in the pot, but in my opinion it might be superior to either check-calling or betting the pot. Your hand is fairly strong heads up with two cards to come, but if you bet out on the flop, get called in one or two places and on the turn you don't improve, then I suddenly like this hand a lot less.
Just my view,
Rolf.

[Rolf Slotboom]

Also, if on the turn you DO improve, especially by making a flush, you might not get any more action from a hand like top pair - but if you DO get action, then it is possible (or even likely) your jack-high flush is no good. For all these reasons, I would say this is an excellent move-in hand, even though our hero's stack is actually a bit too large for making this type of unusual play. In the game you describe, going for a (massive) check-raise would probably be the hero's best option, especially if the players on or close to the button are fairly aggressive. If someone bets the pot, gets called and THEN you come over the top, the pot might end right there - and this is what you want; after all, for now you just have a jack-high, and if they all fold you win a decent pot without ever having to make your hand. But there may be equally valid reasons for betting the pot, check-calling or even check-folding in some cases.

Regards,
Rolf.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Wow! Thanks for all the analysis. Hero told me about this hand and a few others over martinis at a local watering hole after the session. After describing her hand, her stack, the limpers and their stacks (BTW, sorry I forget to include this but everybody else had between $100 to $300 or so), and what came on the flop Hero said matter of factly: "Of course I checked"

I reply with alarm, "What do you mean "Of course you checked"? Didn't you even consider betting?

"Bet? But I had five opponents and nothing made yet. Are you crazy?"

"No, but the fact that you didn't even consider betting will eventually drive me crazy."

"But what if I face a big raise?"

"Look, I'm not saying betting is right, but it definitely should be considered. Your hand can handle a raise. A bet will often win the pot right there, especially in no limit. If you don't get raised but get some callers, you can win a huge pot if you make it on the turn. And if it comes bad on the turn after getting called in a few spots, you might be able to get away from the hand if you face a big enough bet or raise. You aren't pot stuck."

While swizzling our martinis we got into more discussion of the hand and how it might play out, none of which is as interesting as the responses above. But the reason I posted this one was to get Hero back to thinking of all reasonable alternatives and get off auto-pilot.

Anyway, perhaps the most amazing thing was that I was able to type in the post shortly after the large martini (and half of Hero's) all while playing a NL "Sit and Go" tournament (we have two displays so it really isn't that hard). Of course Hero is in charge of tactics for the Sit and Go and we finished three for three in the money that night /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Rolf,

I don't like the big overbet into a $15 pot (after drop). This game features players willing to call all in for $100 to $150 with top pair or the big diamond draw. Both these hands are ahead of Hero, although the jack helps against top pair (unless she is up against JT). Most players in this game are willing to rebuy several times in a session. It is only when they have built up their stacks late in the evening that some become careful not to lose it all at once.

If Hero makes a pot size bet of $15 and gets raised all in by a single opponent, I think it is close between folding and calling with about $150 left and a $165 pot. A lot depends on how you figure the quality of your outs, but adjusting for being up against big diamond overcards and sets or JT, I'd say it is closer to ten outs twice.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

tewall,

If I don't fade out I might be able to post an interesting checkraise hand by Hero. But in this case why do you favor a checkraise all in?

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Lou,

Keep in mind Hero's decision was either to bet (and how much if betting was the choice) or check. At this point no one had bet yet.

Note that in limit I don't like betting a draw with five opponents and this board. It just ins't going to take down the pot often with the cards in "the playing zone" (is this Jim Brier influence BTW) and you tend to get the raises by the player to your left, killing your action.

In this restricted buy in no limit game, a pot size bet has a lot better chance of taking it right there or setting up an opponent to get it all if a straight or flush comes.

Since Hero has only $170 at risk (note that a $100 buy in is very small relative to the blinds), I don't think flush over flush is too big a worry. If she and her opponents were much deeper, I think it becomes more of a concern.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Let's see, there's only one flop card in the playing zone


[/ QUOTE ]

You realize this isn't limit HE, right? You have a gaggle of limpers in a small blind NLHE game (although the blinds are large relative to the max buy in). Any pair is "in the playing zone" for a most players. Esp. if limped multiway pots like this are common.

[/ QUOTE ]

This game can often go through stages where you have several limpers and little raising so small pairs play very well indeed.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Al,

Sorry I forget to mention the stack sizes (everyone was between $100 and $300 or so) but it is tough typing and playing online.

I voted for bet but checking was reasonable. My guess if Hero was faced with multiple choice, she'd pick one of the options where the alternative is reasonable. But that wasn't the way she told it.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

Jay,

When you say abnormal blinds, do you mean the blinds relative to the buy in?

Regards,

Rick

[1800GAMBLER]

Yeah.

[tewall]

I check at first because if it gets checked around, that's cool. If someone bets, I check-raise all-in because I want to bet the aggressor to get the extra equity from my opponent's folding to the all-in bet. If that doesn't work I fall back on the drawing odds. I think this way of playing maximizes your E.V.

Betting would be better than check/calling. I don't like betting as well as the check/raise, however, because if someone else raises me then I've put in the same amount as if I had check-raised but I'm not the aggressor. I don't want to be calling with this hand.

[limon]

im gonna check. im gonna see who takes a stab at it. then im gonna decide whats best. ill probably make a big check raise. against some top notch players or paranoid armenians ill just check call to shake things up. see if i do that then hit the gutshot, when i check it again theyll set me all in putting me on the flush draw. if i hit the flush and bet out theyll think im trying to take them off their hand and will call with alot of [censored].

[Rick Nebiolo]

Rolf,

We read aloud yours and the others replies the last hour. All this seemed to vindicated my main point, that is, we should consider all reasonable alternatives when making an important decision.

Our pot limit and no limit skills are so limited that we didn't even consider your alternatives. And any analysis I did in the other post was after the fact, in the comfort of my home office sanctuary.

A few minutes ago we decided to read a little more Rolf Slotboom at

http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=13325

Your ideas for the play of kings after a raise and call BTF was something we didn't ever consider. Which is what this thread is all about /images/graemlins/grin.gif

One request: Write more about pot limit and no limit holdem. Poker players are starving for good material.

Regards,

Rick and Hero