General discussion: Getting check-raised on the turn

[bdk3clash]

I'm looking for some general discussion and insight into something that came up tonight (in a 4-8 game in NYC) that got me thinking. I'm not looking for specific hand advice, but rather I'm looking for the thought processes you guys use to decide how to proceed.

Anyway, let's say you flop a very strong hand--in my case, it was top set on a two-tone board, but I guess this could apply to other hands that have been hit hard by the flop, such as two-pair, TPTK, or a straight.

Anyway, in my instance I of course pounded my set on the flop, and it was heads up with myself and one EP caller going into the turn. The turn brought the third spade, EP checked, I bet, EP check-raised. I ended up calling the raise and calling his river bet, and his flush was good.

I really can't ever see checking the turn in this instance. There's a whole range of hands he checks there, one of which is of course the made flush, but overall I think it's a clear bet.

(First question): under what circumstances (if ever) do you check your strong hand out of fear of a made draw check-raising you? (Position, pot size, number of players, etc.)

Second question: Generally, when this happens, I call the raise and call/check-call the river. I usually end up convincing myself to call the raise because of my outs (and the chance that I'm still ahead), and by the river I can usually convince myself to make a call based on the pot size alone. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I'm beginning to suspect this is a hole in my game. Comments?

Finally, under what circumstances do you think it becomes correct to three-bet (and potentially cap)? I'm thinking that if there are two or more callers along for the ride, it's probably worth jamming the turn with a set for those times the board pairs on the river. Comments?

Anyway, just wanted to get some discussion going. The last thread I started requesting general advice was about playing pocket kings with an ace on board (seems to happen way too often, doesn't it?), and it generated some very useful advice from our resident gurus.

[slavic]

under what circumstances (if ever) do you check your strong hand out of fear of a made draw check-raising you? (Position, pot size, number of players, etc.)

Almost never unless I know the player well enough to lock him/or her down to a strong draw.

Generally, when this happens, I call the raise and call/check-call the river. I usually end up convincing myself to call the raise because of my outs (and the chance that I'm still ahead), and by the river I can usually convince myself to make a call based on the pot size alone. I'm beginning to suspect this is a hole in my game. Comments?

With a set this is almost never wrong.

Finally, under what circumstances do you think it becomes correct to three-bet (and potentially cap)? I'm thinking that if there are two or more callers along for the ride, it's probably worth jamming the turn with a set for those times the board pairs on the river. Comments?

You need 3 opponents if the flush made it and they are willing to stick around for the jam.

3 betting the turn is actually better to do with a top pair, an overpair, or two pair than a set. (certainly if your set is ahead you want to cap all streets, but we are just talking about a scary board here) With a set you have outs so you wnat to see the river and frankly a showdown. If you are behind you don't lose much by three betting but if your opponent is bluffing he may stop and fold and that isn't good either.

With TPTK, an Overpair, and two pair you have fewer to no outs versus the flush. So in these cases you want to 3 bet and see what happens. If 4 bet you pitch it. Notice you lose nothing more than if you call, and check call the river. If the other better folds, then you have the same number of bets as if he just checked and called all the way. The best part comes when he over-represented a weaker hand because he will call the 3 bet and likely check down the river. Then you gained a bet.

So what if he calls the 3 bet and then bets into you on the river? In most cases you can pitch it. Again you lose nothing more than if you called it down.

[crockpot]

i like your play here, given that you had a set. if you had a weaker hand, such as top and third pair, i would strongly consider pitching it on the turn against a straightforward opponent, unless i was getting odds to chase. here, the chances that you are against two pair or a smaller set help justify a river call.

slavic's discussion about trying to see the river cheaply when you have outs and being aggressive when you do not is very good and worth reading. with his permission, i'd like to put it onto my website's guest essays page, since it is not very well-known to those who have not read HFAP.

[bdk3clash]

Great stuff, Slavic. Thanks.

PS-Love that avatar. Snoochy boochy! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[slavic]

You need 4 opponents to cap it.

10 of 46 cards help you

3.6 to 1

[bdk3clash]

Rare is the game loose enough to ram and jam on the turn, but I'm looking forward to it (and filling up on the river, of course.)

[ajizzle]

Quote: First question): under what circumstances (if ever) do you check your strong hand out of fear of a made draw check-raising you? (Position, pot size, number of players, etc.)

I only check through the turn if both of 2 criteria are met. 1) I have the nuts, and it is possible for someone to make a 2nd best hand, but quite unlikely that they will make a better hand than mine (ie 1 or 2 outer). And 2) A bet on the turn will run out players that would call a river bet if the turn is checked through, or be induced into bluffing on the river, in which case you can check/raise.

If these two criteria are not met, then it is very dangerous to check the turn, and you lose EV by doing so. Even in situations like you described, in the long run, betting the turn will more than make up for money lost when you run into a flush.

Quote:Second question: Generally, when this happens, I call the raise and call/check-call the river. I usually end up convincing myself to call the raise because of my outs (and the chance that I'm still ahead), and by the river I can usually convince myself to make a call based on the pot size alone. I'm beginning to suspect this is a hole in my game. Comments?

The ansewer to this often comes down to the type of player you're up against. If someone's been ramming and jamming with 2 pair on the turn all night, then I like the check/call on the river. If you're up against a rock who's been folding everything, then I think long and hard about the hand he has, and decide to fold if I think he's capable of calling the flop with just a flush draw.

Quote: Finally, under what circumstances do you think it becomes correct to three-bet (and potentially cap)? I'm thinking that if there are two or more callers along for the ride, it's probably worth jamming the turn with a set for those times the board pairs on the river. Comments?

It becomes correct to re-raise the turn if you have a flush draw(A,K,or Q) as well as your trips. If your trips and draw are J or lower, then call and check/call. I don't think you can justify raising the turn with three or more players for the same reason you can't justify capping PF with pocket dueces, because you'll be paid off if you make trips.