Rate this 2+2'ers play

[Brian]

Party 3/6 table. Our hero is dealt A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif in the cutoff. Everyone folds to him and he raises. The button and SB fold, and the BB, a relatively solid player, re-raises. Our hero calls.

Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB bets, hero raises, BB 3 bets, hero calls.

Turn: A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

BB bets, hero calls.

River: 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets, hero calls.

Results later.

-Brian

[Nottom]

Seems fine to me.

[anatta]

I think he played it okay. I play it this way sometimes. Many times, I am done with it on the flop.

In tougher games, where guys are making a lot of moves in headsup situations, it is important to play back. On the other hand, if the "solid" BB doesn't think I am a bully, and his 3 bet is to be respected, I will fold on the flop.

So it comes down to what range of hands will the BB 3-bet against MY steal raises. If its i.e. 99/AQ or higher, I am done with the hand. If its any pair, decent ace, any 2 big or suited cards like KJo, QJs or A3s, etc. I will play on.

[betelgeese]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems fine to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

fine?ok, this is how you would play the hand with no imagination or experience imo.
when i get raised by the bb who is strong player, i do not like the flop (he most likely holds AA, KK, AQ etc)
folding the flop would be ok. if you really must know what the strong player has and decided to call, dont call, re raise. if he raises back yer in trouble, he just calls and then bets out the turn i would fold. is this pot worth going to the end headsup with a strong player holding a marginal hand like A-Jo? you be the judge. and is it fine to check all call all the way to the end? hmm.
i really dont even care if he won this pot.

[GuyOnTilt]

Am I wrong in saying that I'd raise the river? Everybody else seems to think he played it fine, but I don't see a reason not to raise the river. The BB most likely has a high/medium pocket pair, thus the 3-bet on the flop. I would seriously doubt AK or AQ would 3-bet the flop, unless they thought the CO was on a pure steal-bluff attempt. I think the 3-bet preflop plus the 3-bet on the flop makes it very clear that the BB has an overpair on the flop, and thus a raise on the river is in order. A raise on the turn could knock him out of the hand, something you wouldn't want to do since your opponent is drawing to 2 outs, so I'd wait till the river and pop it!

[Ed Miller]

I might 4-bet preflop.

[betelgeese]

[ QUOTE ]
I might 4-bet preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

why

[chesspain]

I had the same thought about raising the river--looks like opponent has a high pocket pair. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

However, I am just starting on my first cup of coffee. It's strong brew, so it's possible when I'm finished I might think hero should cap every street, and then challenge opponent to a sword fight /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Brian]

Hi guys,

I was the BB in this hand and had JJ, good guesses /images/graemlins/wink.gif I didn't think he played it that well on the Flop, but I guess that depends on what he thought of me. Were I to play the hand, I may or may not have semi-bluff raised on the Flop, but I would've definitely folded to the re-raise unless I thought he was a maniac. Then, he didn't raise me once when his magical Ace hit.

-Brian

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seems fine to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

fine?ok, this is how you would play the hand with no imagination or experience imo.
when i get raised by the bb who is strong player, i do not like the flop (he most likely holds AA, KK, AQ etc)


[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like you might be the one with no imagination. The BB was right to reraise the flop with any overpair. While the hero's decision to go to war may have been a marginal call, without knowing if his J was higher than opponent's overpair, I assume that he would have been prepared to fold to a turn bet if a rag hit. I still think he played the hand fine.

P.S. The shift key is our friend. Capital letters are cool, when used judiciously.

[betelgeese]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seems fine to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

fine?ok, this is how you would play the hand with no imagination or experience imo.
when i get raised by the bb who is strong player, i do not like the flop (he most likely holds AA, KK, AQ etc)


[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like you might be the one with no imagination. The BB was right to reraise the flop with any overpair. While the hero's decision to go to war may have been a marginal call, without knowing if his J was higher than opponent's overpair, I assume that he would have been prepared to fold to a turn bet if a rag hit. I still think he played the hand fine.

P.S. The shift key is our friend. Capital letters are cool, when used judiciously.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the capital letters tip.
you're right, i have no imagination. considering he had JJ, and you had A-J, you would have played the hand exactly the same if you had put BB on high pocket pair/AK AQ?

[Ed Miller]

why

1) Because you may have the best hand (a good player should 3-bet out of the BB with hands like KJ and AT when a potential blind-stealer raises)
2) Because you have position
3) Because your opponent may misread your hand and make a bad fold if he holds a hand like KQ or even AQ and the flop comes like 942.

[betelgeese]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi guys,

I was the BB in this hand and had JJ, good guesses /images/graemlins/wink.gif I didn't think he played it that well on the Flop, but I guess that depends on what he thought of me. Were I to play the hand, I may or may not have semi-bluff raised on the Flop, but I would've definitely folded to the re-raise unless I thought he was a maniac. Then, he didn't raise me once when his magical Ace hit.

-Brian

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree with your thoughts concerning A-J man, i think he played this hand badly. (i guess im the only one, and i have no imagination either)

[betelgeese]

[ QUOTE ]
why

1) Because you may have the best hand (a good player should 3-bet out of the BB with hands like KJ and AT when a potential blind-stealer raises)
2) Because you have position
3) Because your opponent may misread your hand and make a bad fold if he holds a hand like KQ or even AQ and the flop comes like 942.

[/ QUOTE ]

4 bet, opening yourself up to 5 bets preflop with A-Jo against a solid playing BB who probably has AA KK etc (had JJ)? ok man, makes sense to me. so u 4 bet , maybe its 5, then flop comes rags, a perfect JJ or high PP flop, and your opponant raises re raise etc and you call these bets with nothing but ace high and pray for a ace on the turn or river where your kicker may not be good, or you hit your kicker and its not going to beat KK AA QQ or in this case even JJ. im just not getting it.

[Ed Miller]

First of all, you can't 5-bet on Party. Second, a tough aggressive player's range of 3-betting a steal-raise from the BB hands is not AA-JJ (or shouldn't be). It should be much broader.

[Ed Miller]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=181861&page=&view=&sb =5&o=

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=229696&page=&view=&sb =5&o=

[betelgeese]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, you can't 5-bet on Party. Second, a tough aggressive player's range of 3-betting a steal-raise from the BB hands is not AA-JJ (or shouldn't be). It should be much broader.

[/ QUOTE ]

didnt know party doesnt allow unlimited raising headsup.
i agree with the rest, but still think 4 betting is not correct with A-J here.

[Ed Miller]

You should read the thoughts in the first hand that I linked to where Mason 4-bet an aggressive player's 3-bet with AJo.

[betelgeese]

[ QUOTE ]
You should read the thoughts in the first hand that I linked to where Mason 4-bet an aggressive player's 3-bet with AJo.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, ok, i understand. but tell me, is out dude here this overly aggressive type? no. in fact both examples you provide, mason is taking advantage of that trait. doesnt completely apply to this situation because of that.
also, in this case the big blind actually did have a real hand and didnt just fold it on the river with a crap ragged board (as in the mason example)
i think your right though, but if im gonna do this, its gonna be against the type of player that mason describes

[Ed Miller]

BTW, I think the BB's river bet is just plain bad. JJ should definitely check the river and possibly induce a bluff from, say, 77. JJ is very likely to be no good once a strong player calls the turn bet after this action.

BB is very lucky he didn't get raised.

[betelgeese]

so kong, i agree now to 4 bet (i thought AJ man wasnt creative here, so 4 betting really is a good option)
so now the flop comes and you bet out, of course JJ will raise, so what do you do from here?
thanks
lets pretend that Ace doesnt come on the turn for a second...

[Ed Miller]

When you 4-bet preflop, you are intentionally overrepresenting your hand. When you have overrepresented your hand and solid opponent continues to come at you, you can usually consider yourself to be behind and act accordingly.

[betelgeese]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I think the BB's river bet is just plain bad. JJ should definitely check the river and possibly induce a bluff from, say, 77. JJ is very likely to be no good once a strong player calls the turn bet after this action.

i agree, but i understand why, because AJ man hit his ace and DIDNT RAISE IT, which was a mistake, bigtime. so it gives JJ man a false sense of security.

BB is very lucky he didn't get raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

[betelgeese]

[ QUOTE ]
When you 4-bet preflop, you are intentionally overrepresenting your hand. When you have overrepresented your hand and solid opponent continues to come at you, you can usually consider yourself to be behind and act accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

so u would fold to a reraise on the flop?

[Ed Miller]

I would often not raise the turn. Many times, you will win at least one extra bet by waiting until the river. I would have raised the river, though.

[Ed Miller]

so u would fold to a reraise on the flop?

Of course not. At that point, the pot is big enough to try and catch an ace on the turn.

[anatta]

Kong, I like the 4 bet but only against certain players. The difference with Mason's hand is that the 3-better knew Mason well, and had the added incentive to eliminate the blinds. To get heads-up, my range of 3-betting hands from the button vs. a steal is greater than that in the BB.

I think most players call in the BB vs. steals with hands like KJo, A8s and the like. Three-betting these hands has merit if the raiser is a bully, or if you think getting that last raise before the flop will let you take control of the hand. Otherwise, I think most will simply toss in 2 chips and see the flop.

So I think it comes down to, "What range of hands with the BB three bet MY steal raise".

As far as intensionally misrepresenting your hand by four-betting for a better read, this is great and something I need to do more of, but I think in Mason's game you need to do this, in a 3-6 game, I think guys get too carried away with these and similar ploys.

[me454555]

Y reraise the river? When the guy 3 bets preflop and the ne bets out against you, he probobly representing a high pair and have only the 3 ace outs. I guess I can assume you thought he didn't have an ace in his hand and thats one of the reasons you played till the turn. When the A hits on the turn, why not raise?

[Nottom]

Its not great, its not awful. A BB raise here from a strong player doesn't mean much at all since he is defending his blind vs an apparent steal raise. Once the A falls on the turn I see no point in raising, you are either way ahead or way behind at this point, just make sure a bet goes in on each street.

[Nottom]

Because so far you have played this hand like a big A and a raise here may push the BB off a smaller pair that is drawing to 2 outs. You can often get an extra bet by letting him bluff into you on the river.

[Ed Miller]

As far as intensionally misrepresenting your hand by four-betting for a better read, this is great and something I need to do more of, but I think in Mason's game you need to do this, in a 3-6 game, I think guys get too carried away with these and similar ploys.

Playing against an unthinking player, I agree completely. The 3-bet probably means that AJ is no good, and the 4-bet won't make much of an impression. Against a solid player, at 3-6 or 30-60, this move has important value (especially if the solid player is reasonably new to poker and hasn't seen this sort of move before). I kind of doubt Brian would have gone to war on the flop if he had been 4-bet preflop. I know he wouldn't have if a queen or especially a king had flopped. I'm not sure, but I suspect Brian would have been thinking about the easiest way to dump his hand had a king flopped.

I guess my point is that if you plan to go to war on a ragged flop when you miss (not necessarily a bad plan) I think you are probably better off putting in the last bet preflop instead.

[GuyOnTilt]

Why would you fold to a reraise? You know at this point that you have 3 squeaky clean outs. Calling one more SB to catch your ace on the turn is fine since the pot has grown quite large and you have 3 BB's worth of implied odds.

[GuyOnTilt]

Because your opponent is representing a medium/high pocket pair and you don't want him to fold on the turn. You call the turn and raise the river.

[Mike Gallo]

Big blind had either 88 AA or perhaps AK. I go with 88.

I think hero might have overplayed his hand a bit on the flop.

[Mike Gallo]

Why did you bet the river after he called your turn bet and an ace hit?

The results through me for a loop here.

[me454555]

Then y not checkraise the river?

[Brian]

Hi MG,

I bet the River on the end because I have been taught to bet more hands when you are first to act than when you are last to act heads up on the River. If I check, I am letting him decide whether or not he wants to go to the showdown for free (if he had a hand such as TT, 99, or 77), instead of myself trying to get a free showdown. And if I check and he DOES have an Ace, he is almost certainly going to Bet and I am going to end up putting another Bet into the pot anyways. Because he didn't raise me on the Turn when the Ace hit (which most have pointed out would not have been a good play knowing what my hand was), I did not feel he would raise me on the River either. In other words, in my mind at the time I was not worried about a raise coming from him (right or wrong); therefore, I bet the River.

-Brian

[GuyOnTilt]

Out of curiousity, if your opponent had correctly raised the river, what would you have done?

[Brian]

Hi Bright,

I would've folded, but it wouldn't have been easy for me, and I've definitely paid that type of stuff off before. I am also not even sure if it's correct to fold there, but like majorkong said, whenever I see an overcard to my hand I am looking for any excuse to dump it.

The 2+2'er in question has not even responded to this thread though he is a regular visitor of this forum. Whenever there is a 2+2'er at my table, I usually read over their threads and get an idea of what type of player they are. And one of the things I look for is would this guy completely bluff me? Most Small Stakes posters would not go for a bluff raise on the River, and I don't think this guy would either.

You know, I think it actually depends on my mood at the time whether or not I would pay him off. I can't say for sure what I would have done since it didn't happen, but I do know that one of the things I tell myself each night before I go to bed is "This session would've been so much more profitable if I didn't constantly look people up only to be shown what I expected".

-Brian

[EDIT]: BTW, Guy, do you disagree with my betting the River? I think that majorkong is right that I'm probably going to get the extra bet out of 77-TT anyways (because they may try a bluff or bet for value or who knows), and that way I don't risk the Raise. But I don't think the River bet was extraordinarily bad, and usually when I am betting the River in a situation like this (where I am first to act and have to call a bet anyways), it turns out well.

[GuyOnTilt]

Because of the flop action, I would've checked and called a bet.

EDIT: If I had KK or QQ, I would be more inclined to bet the river. With JJ, I don't think your river bet was as bad as some seem to, but I would've checked and called.

[Ed Miller]

I think the river bet is fine against some players. But against a 2+2er, you are in bad shape once he calls a turn bet when the ace comes after the action so far.

[Nottom]

As others pointed out, you probably should. I still wouldn't because he may very well be ahead as well with a set or a bigger ace that was overplayed on the flop and I'm not sure how often a good player will call the raise if he can't beat you.

[Mike Gallo]

I bet the River on the end because I have been taught to bet more hands when you are first to act than when you are last to act heads up on the River.

I like the bet if you thought it would make a better hand.

I would have worried about the potential raise with the ace on board. At times like this you have to double think your opponent. Why did he call the turn, most likely to set up the river raise and trap you for one more bet.