ls a slow play approprate here?

[jstnrgrs]

paradise .5/1
I have A /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif UTG+2
folded to me, I call, folded to MP who raises, CO calls, blinds call, I call
FLOP:
J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB bets, BB folds, I call, MP call, CO folds
TURN:
7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
SB bets, I call, MP calls
RIVER:
6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
SB bets, I raise, MP folds, SB 3-bets, I cap, SB calls

[Homer]

Preflop - Fold ATo from early position.

Flop - In general, do not slowplay broadway as you could easily end up chopping if one of your hole cards shows up on board, plus the flop is bound to have hit some of your opponents (since all 3 cards are in the "playing zone") so you will get action. In this case, however, I believe you should give consideration to just calling SB's bet, because MP (the preflop raiser) is likely to raise behind you. Then you can three-bet when the action is back on you.

Turn - Definitely raise here.

River - I'd cap as well. SB is unlikely to have the flush given that he bet out on the flop.

-- Homer

[rkiray]

Homer,

Looks Like ATs to me. But I agree, I wouldn't slow play, besides your point, you want to charge flush draws the max, and chase small flush draws out.

[jstnrgrs]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop - Fold ATo from early position.


[/ QUOTE ]
FLOP:
This was ATs (should I still have folded?).
Since the flop was a rainbow, I figured it was unlikely that I would get outdrwan, so I figured I wanted to keep as many opponents as possible, so I just called.

TURN:
I figured a raise might drive out MP, then SB would call, and call my river bet (2BBs). If I call, then MP will call, Then on the river, MP will bet, I will raise, and he will call (3BBs). So a call seems more profitable to me. You comments on this are appreciated.

Results, MP showed 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the lower straight on the flop, but more importantly, the backdoor flush. Oh well. . .

[GuyOnTilt]

Raise preflop. I rarely limp from ATs from any position.

I don't think this is a very appropriate time to slowplay. I would've raised the flop. There are too many ways that either player has a good piece of that flop, and there's also the risk of chopping should a T or A show up. I'd be ramming and jamming my nuts on every street.

[Homer]

My mistake, for some reason I saw ATo. Limping with ATs is fine.

I understand what you are trying to say in your comments, but one thing you are forgetting is that most poker players suck. You are assuming they will make sound plays based on your bets/raises, but most likely they will not. For example, if you raise the turn, MP will probably coldcall with his TT/AJ/AQ (assuming his flop call was not a slowplay), whereas he should fold.

-- Homer

[Louie Landale]

The MP raiser is VERY likely to play with this board so raising is NOT going to knock him out. He is also likely to be paranoid with that board if he has only one pair (AA, AK), so he is UNLIKELY to raise and rightfully so. If he has a set if doesn't matter much what you do since you'll get to gamble either way.

I'd raise immediately. This is quite a bit different than if its just loose callers behind you.

Capping the river is pretty hopeless. After all, you called all the way and it sure LOOKS like you improved on the river. The opponent is going to put you on a flush. So even if its unlikely that he back-door'd a flush its even LESS likely that he 3-bet without one.

- Louie

[Homer]

Raise preflop. I rarely limp from ATs from any position.

I don't see what raising from EP with ATs accomplishes. You'll drive out worse Aces and better Aces will call (we're talking low-limit games here, so hands like AJo/AQo will coldcall or reraise).

Comments?

-- Homer

[ajizzle]

I think a slowplay is perfect in this situation, but I personally like the raise on the turn, not the river. By playing it this way, you get the same number of bets into the pot, and get protection against the possible runner/runner diamond flush that one of your opponents may be chasing.

One downfall of raising the turn is that you run out MP, so in that sense, you ARE losing a bet. In a larger scheme of things though, I prefer to raise the turn.

[squiffy]

Yes, Guy seems to give some very solid advice. I have a lot of respect his posts, even more so now that he won that tournament thing. This is a perfect illustration of how slowplaying cost you money as a made straight and backdoor flush draw would have paid off your bets and raises. And I guess you want to charge him AMAP (As Much As Possible) to draw to the flush.

I have read that you slowplay when you have a monster that is likely to be the best hand even if your opponent improves. Depending on the flops, straights are just not that strong so that you can reliably or safely slowplay them. As Guy says, I have seen many a straight counterfeited, especially high straights, when so many opponents are playing two high cards.

And if there is a two pair, flush draw, or lower straight out there, you have to charge them the price of admission.

[jstnrgrs]

I agree, and now that I have read this advise, I will most likely never slowplay a straight (even a nut straight on a rainbow flop) again.
On this hand, my slowplay actually saved me money, because there was no way that my opponent would have folded his straight. If I'd ramed and jammed, It likely would have been capped on every street before I lost to the backdoor flush. However, that is being results oriented. The point is that in the long run, this play actually costs me money, so I will raise every opportunity I get with a straight in the future.

[Easy E]

But once it has been raised AND gotten several callers, you DEFINATELY should reraise to build a big pot. What else is Ax suited good for, especially when it's Ace-big?

[Easy E]

I have AcTc UTG+2
folded to me, I call, folded to MP who raises, CO calls, blinds call, I call

NO! Reraise here- see my reply to Homer, but with the callers, build a big pot. You WANT weaker Aces out, IMO, unless you can control/predict their play when they catch baby-second pair... especially with all of the callers already involved.

FLOP:
Jd Qc Ks
SB bets, BB folds, I call,

NO! Raise here! People who have any piece of the flop are coming- you'll get some paid. You WANT to knock out any Ace or Ten here, especially if they have backdoor flush draws.

Plus, raising
a) charges 2 pair and trips the biggest price to follow along
b) disguises your backdoor flush, so if you catch a club on the turn, you can catch weaker flushes unprepared. With aggressive opponents, you might be able to get a check-raise in on the turn as well.
c) maybe knocks out runner-runner flushes that caught part of the flop (Kxs for example). The straight catch probably rendered this part moot for SB, but...

You have the best hand, but it's vunerable... but you have redraws. Charge as much as you can. If you reraise preflop, maybe T9d drops, maybe not. You probably can't get him out on the flop, unless MP cooperates and reraises you.

Once the diamond comes on the turn, there was nothing you could do except make it as expensive as you could- you weren't getting the diamond draw out.

TURN:
7d
SB bets, I call,

Raise, though it only costs you in this situation.

RIVER:
6d
SB bets, I raise, MP folds, SB 3-bets, I cap

Really bad cap. What are they 3-betting with? Unless they are micro-limit maniacs.

and in fact, you shouldn't have raised the river. If you're splitting, get MP's overcall to chop up. If you win, get MPs extra bet with only 1 big bet risk yourself, rather than risking 2 big bets to get SB's one bet if you win/split and 3 big bets when reraised if you're beaten.

In summary, how would you have played top two pair here on the flop? Or top/bottom? Or AK?
So, there's no reason NOT to raise the current nuts on the flop.

[GuyOnTilt]

I don't see what raising from EP with ATs accomplishes. You'll drive out worse Aces and better Aces will call.

Would you open-raise KQs after two folds? Why? The only K's and Q's that will call you are ones that dominate you...I just see it as too strong of a hand to not take the opportunity to seize control of the hand with. It's just so much easier for me to play a hand when I have control over the table, which is what happens when you're aggressive at low limits. If I can drive out hands like KJ, KQ, QJ, and AJ then I think raising is a good play. At some tables I'm sure raising ATs from EP isn't a good idea. Raising ATs too often might be a leak in my game though. Anybody care to add some insight here?

BTW, I take back what I said about rarely limping with ATs in EP; I frequently limp-reraise with it at more aggressive tables.

[MaxPower]

The biggest pots you will ever win are when you flop the nut straight. They will not be big pots if you don't bet and raise at every opportunity.

You generally get a lot more action with a straight than you do you with a flush, because a flush type board scares your opponents while a straight type board doesn't and is very likely to make 2nd best hands (2 pair etc.)

You don't want to slow play if your opponents are going to call anyway.

If you opponent has 2 pair, you don't want to slow play and let him catch that miracle card cheaply.

You will rarely make more money by slowplaying. Your opponents won't put you on the straight when you raise. Even if they do, they will call you anyway. Often they will not bet the turn (so you can't raise) or they will fold to your raise on the turn when they would have called your flop raise.

Also, once you decide to slowplay don't stick to your plan no matter what happens. You shouldn't cap it on the river.