Game that just cant be beat.

[KemAces]

Hi everyone. Earlier today I played in my usual No Limit Hold Em homegame, but this time my poker abilities had improved vastly from playing online and reading books (we hadnt played for a few months or so, but usually we play once a week). Anyway, I have always been a profitable player in my home game, but I realized that is only because I was on the same level as all the other players. I thought that I would completely dominate now that I am much better but in fact the opposite occured. For example, I had Axs and the flop came J 7 x. I thought that I could simply outplay my opponent, who is a insane fish. He called all my bets of $3 and $5 to the river and he won with trips 7's when another 7 hit on the river, otherwise I am confident I would have taken down the pot when I raised $10 on the river. He usually holds his chips when he plans to fold and he was indeed holding his chips.. but this time he had it. I was down to $7 and I raised allin the next hand hoping to steal the blinds because I was pretty sure everyone would fold. A guy who earlier in the game called my allin raise when he had J 10 offsuit and I won with 10 10 called the $7. He said "You better not have pockets this time!", and I said "No I've think you've got me, I was trying to steal". He flips an 8 7 offsuit and I am quite happy now because I have J 7 leaving him with very few outs. Well.. on the river he catches a gutshot straight, the deck hit him over the head. Up to those last two hands I was playing decent, but when I tried advance play it failed against fish. Which leads me to my point that advanced play dosnt really work when your opponents will call with anything and catch on you. Usually I would have bought back in but instead I cursed the guy who just beat me with the 8 7 offsuit (normally out of my character, but I hated the guy anyway) and left. I doubt I'll ever play in that homegame again because instead I will just play online or at the casino where I can actually make profit against people who have half a brain. There were a few other hands that were similar to the hands I described. Anyway, my point is that people always say they want the relaly fishy at their table but more often than not the extremely fishy guy has a huge stack of chips (thats why everyone is cursing him and disgusted with his play). I think it is actually harder to beat the really fishy players with advanced tactics. Who knows... maybe I am completely wrong and just still steeming over my homegame.. I dont know.

thoughts?

KemAces /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Bozeman]

it may be hard to beat the super-fish with advanced tactics, but it's very easy to beat them with simple tactics.

[Dynasty]

You'll have to clarify which of your plays you think were advanced because they sounded like foolish over-aggressive plays to me.

The problem is not with your opponents. It is with you. You either don't have the skills or didn't use the skills necessary to beat your opponents.

[KemAces]

You know what dynasty I have played with these people for years and I was always at their level and now that I am better it seems like I play worse to them because they are so bad. I made the right plays and you would have done the exact same I'm sure if you were in my position. You cany wait for hands like AA, KK, QQ, etc. in a homegame where you play 1 hand ever 7 minutes.

[Moonsugar]

I think its a bit of a stretch to say Dynasty would play the same if he was in your position. I have read your posts. I have read Dynasty's posts. One poster is completely sound and logical. The other is scatterbrained and sounds desperate. Those two people will not play the same.

[KemAces]

The other is scatterbrained and sounds desperate.

Listen buddy, I'm not scatterbrained and desperate. I am just confused by all of the advice from books that constantly contradicts itself and dosnt apply to my homegames which I found out the hard way.

Everyone at this forum seems like they have nothing to do but post negative replies that are the opposite of constructive. I heard that Two Plus Two'ers think they are better than everyone else but I didnt realize everyone here has a stick up their ass. Its like im talking to a bunch of Phil Hellmuths who all think they are the greatest poker players in the world. Well ***** you.

Id rather post somewhere where I get constructive ideas as responses.

[TazQ]

Don't bluff calling stations.

Just play ABC poker, don't worry about semibluffs or anything you read in HPFAP. Bet when you have something, and expect to be called by worse hands the majority of the time. Call when you're on a draw, fold when the flop misses you. "Advanced tactics" don't work on people who are there to have fun and aren't thinking about the game.

If you can beat games where people have "half a brain", that homegame should of been easy pickings.

No, it isn't harder to beat fishy opponents. Lots of people can average 3-5 BB/Hr/Table at the .50/1 Party tables. Take a look at the 2+2 table that is hosted every Tuesday night sometime. I seriously doubt that you, or anybody else would have an easier time beating a game that is raised 95% of the time preflop with only 2-3 people seeing the flop.

[MrGrob]

[/ QUOTE ] "I think it is actually harder to beat the really fishy players with advanced tactics."

[/ QUOTE ]

If they can't play and don't know how to think, they will have no idea that a tactic is possible, or even that ANYTHING is possible, and call along like the fish they are after the bait...but you have to have the real thing baited...don't even try to make plays...just run them down with good hands like deer in the headlights of a truck....

[MrGrob]

If you have "ways of thinking" and someone is only thinking to level A -- and you try to make a play based on level B or C...they will miss it...plus, since it is a "play" you don't have negative strength...and this, by default, make level A thinking correct by running yourself 'right 'round in a circle and end up playing "artificially" bad, as thinking on any level besides A has less or negative value...

I am sure that someone can make what I am saying make sense...or, if not, I just ate some bad Chinese Food /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[leon]

This is basic poker. You can't outplay someone who doesn't know what is going on. You can't make a fish lay down a hand by convincing him you've got him beat.

These games are easy precisely b/c they involve so little skill and advnaced play. Make a hand, don't violate the math of poker, ram your good hands down their throat, and show down the best hand to win. Simple.

Trying to push a fish off middle pair when you have bottom pair is not good poker. It's suicide. In fact, the only one who violates the fundamental theorem of poker here is you (actually the fish should reraise your bottom pair if he knew you had that, but point remains).

Let me state- if you can't beat these games you can't beat any game. Playing against better competition is not the answer. You say you've read some books, so assuming you've read some good ones you should know that straightforward play against fish is what gets the money.

No insult intended here, but if you don't realize this simple fact, and exactly WHY advanced tactics don't work against fish, then you're not a good player.

Personally I'd try and get invited back to that home game, treat everyone real nice and friendly and then try your damnedest to take their money playing good, solid poker. A NL game with fish who call down is the absolute nuts. If I had a consistent game like that I'd quit my job right now.

Leon

[Moonsugar]

You want something constructive? I will try to help.

1) Any game can be beaten (by someone).
2) You and I can't beat every game.
3) We have to make adjustments to our play to beat each particular game.
4) We will have losing sessions at a beatable game.
5) Being lucky doesn't make me good.
6) Being unlucky doesn't make me bad.
7) If my results continue to differ from my expectations then it is time to check my premises.

I expect to beat any of the games I enter (except 2+2 table). If I don't I always look at myself and try to find ways I can imrove. My opponents don't make me make mistakes. I make mistakes. If I continuously and ruthlessly eliminate these mistakes I will become a great and successful player.

This is the mindset I think one needs to get better. You can't think: My opponenets played so badly that it caused me to lose. What??? If your opponenets played so badly you should be happy to play in the game. Whether you won one hand, over one hour, or one session is irrelevant (as long as you played correctly). Over a long period of time you are going to win.

Psychology is extremely important. I think you need to look within.

[Gamblor]

Many theoretical physicists postulate that there are, in fact, up to 10 dimensions, instead of the 4 humans can detect (length, width, height, and time).

Assuming they are right, an evil alien with an advanced body structure spanning 7 dimensions, as opposed to the 3 spatial dimensions that humans can detect, would be virtually invisible.

The alien would try to kill the humans but would get nowhere because the human does not exist in 4 out of those 7 dimensions the alien occupies.

Same goes for poker. If all of your tools - semibluffing, slowplaying etc. etc. are all well and good for a 7-dimensional opponent. But for a 3 dimensional opponent, you have to stick to the 3 dimensions.

Straightforward?

[ResidentParanoid]

I agree with much of the criticism from others. You must adjust to the table texture in any game. If people call down with anything, then trying to make them fold is a -EV play. If that's the only way that you can play, then choosing a game of "no-foldem" will be -EV for you. Rather than blame them for being "bad", accept that you can't beat them, and move to another game, as you seem to have done.

If you're trying to learn to beat that game, take some of the well reasoned advice in this thread. The first attitude that you must lose is the one that leads you to say, "These guys are just so bad that they can't be beat". You must come to the conclusion, "These guys are so bad that I must use different tactics to beat them".

Good luck.

[nicky g]

"Listen buddy, I'm not scatterbrained and desperate. I am just confused by all of the advice from books that constantly contradicts itself and dosnt apply to my homegames which I found out the hard way."

What books tell you to raise all-in with J7? Or bluff on the
end against a calling station?

[ElSapo]

Hey Kem…

I’ll offer some advice, coming from someone who has gone though, it sounds like, much the same process you have.

1) Listen to the other posters. There is some very, very good advice out there. I know some posters will put things more gently than others, and we don’t always like what we read, but the truth is they’re helping. The advice they give, whether harshly or gently, will be worth a lot of money to you. I see posts on here all the time from beginners just starting to find their game, essentially thanking the forum for helping, and for making them winning players. Trust these guys. The advice you’re getting, for free, is good advice. I don’t know where you can find better.

2) Home games move slow. And you don’t come to fold, you come to play. Same with casinos. That’s how it feels anyway, but that’s not the reality. Keep folding marginal hands, even if you don’t play as much as you’d like. Just chuck the cards into the muck and start the next topic of conversation. Learn to enjoy the hanging out with your friends part just as much as the poker – this will save you god knows how much agony in playing bad cards from sheer boredom. Let the other people play bad cards and bad situations because –they- didn’t come to fold.

3) Because you think you’re better, a lot of things will happen. First, losing will be ten times as frustrating as it ever was. You need to forget this. I still lose from time to time in my home game, and when I lose I sometimes lose big. I play my hands aggressively and when I have a hand I invest a lot of chips. If someone is catching rivers, there’s nothing I can do about it. I’ve had sessions were I rebought many times but didn’t think I was playing poorly (though arguably I was at times). It happens.

4) A winning player losing some is good for the game. If you won all the money, all the time, the money would disappear. This isn’t true in bigger games, perhaps, or in casinos, but in the typical home game I’m not so certain you want to run the game over. Especially if you hold a tremendous edge over your opponents. I like to see the money distributed from time to time in my game, because I know players will be coming back. I’ll get my share over time. I’m not saying dump – never dump – just know that when you do take a bad beat, or have a wretched night, there can be positives.

5) Have the goods. Just be patient, and when you have the cards play them aggressively. You say you can’t seem to steal pots – that’s not a bad thing. They’re calling. Good. They’ll call just the same way when you have the nuts as when you have nothing. Have the cards, bet them and show them down. If you know they’re going to call – whether or not they should – have the cards to take into a showdown.

6) Think about what you’re reading. When I first started playing, I tried to use HEPFAP in my no-limit home game. If the advice you’re getting is for limit poker, and you’re playing no limit, you need different advice.

7) Post hands in the NL section. Include things like stack sizes, table texture, positions. Read the feedback. Think about it. Do not write it off, just because you think you played well and someone, or many someones, say you didn’t. I’ll repeat this – the advice here is worth a lot of money. The posters here have a wealth of experience. Listen to them.

Good luck.

[archmagi]

You should be able to beat a bunch of loose passive opponents, but being loose and super-aggressive is not the way to do it.
If you want to beat that table, go to online 0.5/1 games, and practice until you can beat them. While you're doing that remember; no fancy plays; they can have absolutely anything in their hand; bluff only rarely.

[sucka]

I will just play online or at the casino where I can actually make profit against people who have half a brain.

Classic.

I think this happens to alot of people who start to think that they are improving their game a little. You want to assume that everyone at the table is thinking the same way that you are - but they aren't. The fact is you should LOVE playing in this game and want to convince them to play 8 days a week if they can.

Your problem is, as several people have mentioned, is that fancy play syndrome doesn't work worth a [censored] against people who have no clue. What you need to do in this game is play tight and aggressive - but no so much that you come across bullying the table around. As someone else said - ram and jam when you have the goods and fold when you don't. Let the other players tendencies to call all the way make you money NOT you trying to bully and steal it from them every time your magic powers kick in and you think you can pull some move.

It's frustrating to lose a session in these loose games - but the plain and simple fact is - to win, you have to hit some flops and make some hands.

[rigoletto]

I'm not scatterbrained and desperate.

I hope you're not, but your post sounds that way. All Dynasty is saying, is that your 'advanced playes' where not advanced but stupid and the conclusion is that you are either overestimating your own abilities or using your skills the wrong way.

Why are you posting anyway! Do you just want people to be in awe of your superior play or do you want to learn something - in this case; that you might not be as good as you think. If you want constructive critisism, you might want to either:

1) Defend your position and explain the superiority of your plays, thus getting rebuttles you could learn from.

2) Ask why Dynasty (and others) thought your playes stupid, thus getting the same result as from 1.

Instead you chose to get sultry like a little boy who is mad because his dad didn't let him win in checkers.

[KemAces]

Thanks everyone for your constructive criticism. I guess I just didnt have the patience to wait for my goods hands and get value for them. I had been playing online too much at 2 tables where I am getting dealth a hand every 5 seconds. Simple mistake turned into a disaster. Also, I'll look into the other advice. thanks /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ElSapo]

Instead you chose to get sultry like a little boy who is mad because his dad didn't let him win in checkers.

Please, god, tell me you meant one of the other definitions of this work, or perhaps "sulky."

[Jezebel]

Is this guy for real? I am really beginning to think that this is a regular poster that has changed names and having a great time pulling legs.

I appologize if it is a legitimate poster. If so I have one piece of advice. The play of the cards is not your main problem, you need to get your head straight and change your whole outlook on the game of poker. Until you change your outlook you will continue to struggle no matter how many poker books you read.

[crockpot]

i've been on tilt before. i know the feeling...you know your opponent can't possibly call a bet here, but he does it with a weak hand over and over.

what i usually discover afterwards is that my opponent had decided he was going to call me with anything and everything because he had seen i would keep trying to bet him out. (as a good example, awhile back i raised preflop and bet the flop and the turn and got calls. when i checked the river, my opponent showed a 65 with no flush draw on a board of AQT7 on the turn. apparently he thought he must have had six outs against a maniac like me)

it's simple: against these types of players, you have to let go of most of your poker skills and just wait for a hand. trust me, the rewards will be nice when you hit one.

think about it...if someone told you that you could play in a game where people would call huge raises preflop with 8-7 offsuit and give you clear tells for when they would fold to bets, wouldn't you be quite happy to jump in?

[gonores]

I dunno. That clown under his name makes me think Rigo has a problem, but it's not his vocabulary /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[rigoletto]

Ups! Please excuse us non-native english speakers. I meant sordid, wait succulent, no sucking... eh forget it!

[squiffy]

I just bought a book called Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players. Written by two old, funny-looking guys.

They say not to try fancy advanced strategy on loose fishies, because they loose fishies aren't paying attention. And they say not to cuss out the loose fishies, because if you play tight against them, you will eventually take their money.

You should buy this book and read it, even though it was written a long time ago by two old, funny-looking dinosaur-type guys.

[GuyOnTilt]

[DrPhysic]

Ok, Guys, I have a similar problem with a table not unlike the table KemAces is playing. I have also read 4 or 5 of the books (incl HePFAP), and am a learner. If I go into a similar home game, knowing by now that a Kxo is a lousy play all of the time and Kxs ain't as good as it first looks, (and similar hands that I would have played 6 months ago), and knowing that a semi-bluff is not going to work, I still have a problem.

If I stay with WinningPokerOnline's starting hand groups, or Sklansky's hand groups using the top 5 groups only... In a "friendly" kitchen table game, it is considered "unsociable" to fold 85% of your hands. Sooner or later they will figure out not to bet against you when you do stay in, or especially when you raise, or perhaps not to invite you back.

How do you adjust down from tight aggressive, to a level where you will get a reasonable number of bets?

DrPhysic

[ResidentParanoid]

How loose and passive is the game: If everyone calls pre-flop with anything, you can play looser. I.e. Kxs is now a very reasonable hand, assuming it is not likely to be raised.

Do you have blinds? Do you have a rake? Do you have the normal 1/2, 1/2, 1, 1 betting structure and 3 raise max? All of these considerations will factor into what you can play preflop. Many home games I have played have rules that allow you to play many more hands.

Lastly, after you have folded your hand, stack chips, tell a joke, or whatever to keep yourself involved in the game. If you are beating the game, you will almost surely be one of the tightest players at the table. Every once in a while, someone will insult you for being tight. Make a joke about how horrible your cards have been for the last couple of hours.

[squiffy]

Maybe you can do K10o K9o K8o Q10o Q9o and add some lower suited connectors. Or when you do play, do a lot of raising and be hyper aggressive, so perhaps they won't notice as much that you are not playing that many hands. But yes, in a home game, you should be trying to have fun and not trying too hard to make money. You can always make money online or at LIVE poker.

Just go one or two tiers down. Actually, rather than playing too many unsuited cards, just play high unsuited that add up to 20. And maybe add Kx suited, Qx suited, Jx suited, so you still have flush shots. You can fold them quickly if you don't hit. And if you draw to a flush and hit it you make money, but it looks like you are more of a gambler, because you were drawing.

[leon]

... but it might not work for you depending on how long or well you play poker. That being said...

I've got a real great home game I attend once a week. A bunch of friends of friends, really juicy, for microlimits. I play here purely for fun as the stakes are too low to me to be meaningful. I LOOK FORWARD TO THIS GAME EVERY WEEK. It's pure socialization, with lots of practice thrown in there, plus I get to teach which I love. Most of my opponents have read no books, and one often forgets what beats what. If only they would play for higher stakes. Oh wait, where was I? Oh yes...

So the way I get action here is- I raise. And I raise. And I raise. I don't raise in the futile hopes that I will push out a better hand by making a fish make a good laydown. But I do raise Ax sooted after limpers. And I do raise Q9 sooted on the river, with top pair, when I'm pretty sure it's a value bet. Mind you, I've been playing with some of these guys for years now, and some of them are like an open book. But I'm sure you can find some guys in your own game that are this readable. When you add up my hyperaggression with other image techniques (a fave of mine is to raise ala Tommy Angelo, grabbing two big stacks in one hand and pistoning them down as I place the chips, PM him for a better description of his technique if you want), I get calls like you wouldn't believe. I also tend to buy in for 100$ when the buy in is 20$, just for giggles.

These guys all know I play semi pro and several of them have seen my poker growth over the last few years, but I still get calls. It's amazing. And most importantly, I'm still just one of the guys. Who cares that I play everyday and they don't know beans. I'm still one of the guys.

I'm sure it helps that I am friends with some of them outside of poker. The game actually has helped develop one or two of them INTO new friends, which is another bonus. Anyway, you can make some plays that might appear to be loose to them but still stay within the bounds of good poker (ie, raise with a small pocket pair after many limpers, they'll never respect your raise after this and think you're loose even though you don't give up much here, if at all).

Leon

[cjx]

[ QUOTE ]
Which leads me to my point that advanced play dosnt really work when your opponents will call with anything and catch on you .

[/ QUOTE ]

If your opponents are going in against you with inferior hands what more can you ask for? So what if you lost a couple hands... I heard Phil Ivey talking once on Travel Channel and he was saying how he expects to take bad beats and be out drawn on (this is after getting knocked out of one of the tournies I believe) because when he goes in he has the best hand. That's all you can really ask for bro, get your chips in with the best hand. What you should have done is laughed, patted him on the back, and reloaded. Now you've got the table image that is desirous at the home game (happy loosey gambler)...

I hate losing as much as the next guy, but... you gotta be able to roll with the punches if you want to play any serious amount of poker. Your "advanced skills" are still applicable because you should be looking at pot odds and making better lay downs than your opponents... but no, blind steals with crap or check raisies (why possibly lose a bet when you are certain they'll call with crap anyway).

cjx

[DrPhysic]

RP,
You're right, I didn't give you much info. 7 hand game, 1/2 ante all, no blinds, 1/2, 1/2, 1 - 3 raise limit. Often see 5 or even 6 in at the flop, 2 or 3 at the end. Seldom a win without SD. Not unusual to see 2 or 3 raises. And somebody is still betting Kxo at the river with the x 2nd or 3rd pair. Some of the stuff people bet on (probably including me a while ago) just astounds me. But...if you assume there aren't any good hands around, you'll get whipped.

[ElSapo]

Most home games I know are not full tables. You will need to play more hands, and play them more agressively. As the games get shorter, I suspect the "poor" players who play too many hands and may play too agressively are actually playing closer to correct than you realize. Especially may depend on the relation of ante/blinds to bets, if it is a non-standard game.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
If I stay with WinningPokerOnline's starting hand groups, or Sklansky's hand groups using the top 5 groups only... In a "friendly" kitchen table game, it is considered "unsociable" to fold 85% of your hands. Sooner or later they will figure out not to bet against you when you do stay in, or especially when you raise, or perhaps not to invite you back.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are the stakes nickles and dimes, 2/4, 5/10? If its just an excuse to get away from the wives and play some cards with the boys, than feel free to mix it up with some hands you might not normally play. You aren't there to make money and as long as you stay reasonably tighter than the rest you will probably hold your own. Also many home games are often shorthanded, so you are generally correct to play a lot more hands to begin with.

And I wouldn't worry too much about people playing differently when you are in the pot. They are there to play, not fold so I wouldn't worry about them nt giving you action when you are in a pot. If they don't then feel free to start opening a little more and taking advantage of the situation. Show down a few "sub-par" hands like suited connectors and Axs early in the session, and you can then tighten back down and they might not even notice.

[lefty rosen]

You just can't play them like a programmed bot, you have to use your head and adjust to the players, obviously against clowns you just have to have the best hand, and don't power bet your draws. Don't know why you bother and play home games if you are a winning casino/online player as these games are waste of your time money wise and may lead to bad habits on the casino tables.........

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't know why you bother and play home games if you are a winning casino/online player as these games are waste of your time money wise and may lead to bad habits on the casino tables.........

[/ QUOTE ]

Its called fun, maybe you've heard of it?

[ResidentParanoid]

With everyone anteing, the starting hand strategy is going to be very different than the standard "casino style" game. I'm no expert, but you must be able to be much looser. Postflop, you're obviously going to need a hand to win with 5 or 6 routinely to the flop.