T/F: Must be able to play post-flop w/o top pair

True or False: To play low limit poker profitably, you must be able to play post-flop without top pair.


If this is true, I would be curious to know how this is done. Any general adviceor books to read?

Like most of the things in hold 'em, this depends on many factors. The number of players in the hand, the texture of the flop, and maybe most important, your position. Let's say you are heads up, and the flop comes QJ2 rainbow, and you hold AJo; let's us also say you have position on your opponet. You can bet or raise with this middle pair and feel pretty good about things.


Now let's put you under the gun with KK, you raise, and get 6 callers; the flop comes A94 rainbow. You bet out, and get raised with 5 callers. This situation screams "I have an Ace!" in at least a couple of positions. IMHO, you can safely dump your kings and not feel badly about it.


May the flop be with you,


Fitz

True.


Why? Well, notice what happens when you rephrase the question:


"To play low limit poker *expertly*, you must be able to play post-flop without top pair."

True: An expert can play well in ALL situations, even if the correct play is folding.


"To play low limit poker *expertly*, you must be able to *continue playing* post-flop without top pair."

True: An expert recognizes opportunities to push a weak hand.


To play *any form of* poker profitably, you must be able to play post-flop without top pair.

False: In many situations, rockish play is profitable. The small advantage you give up by not pursuing weak hands even when your opponent is weaker is hardly missed. This is especially true in low-limit games.


Based on these statements, my final answer would probably be "false," but that's assuming you hold one pair or no pair. What about...


"To play low limit poker profitably, you must be able to play post-flop without top pair *OR A DRAW*."

Once you consider the draw factor, it becomes vital to be able to play with a hand weaker than top pair on the flop, depending on what that hand could become.


Notice I differentiate between playing perfectly and playing profitably. I was profitable a long time ago (appropriately enough, in a 5-10 holdem game in which I almost never continued with 2nd pair), but I will never play perfectly.


You can make money against the right players by dropping 2nd pair with no draw; it's just a question of: A) How good you aspire to be, and B) How comfortable you are pushing small edges.

mdlm,


"Without top pair..."


As Sly suggested, there are many hands that are not top pair:


* Various draws -- 4 flushs, open-ended straights, gutshot straights, back door flushs and combinations of these and these with other possibilities


* Overpairs (say KK when flop is T 7 2)


* Sets, trips and split two pairs


* You could even flop a full house, a flush or a straight, 4 of kind, or a straight flush


And none of those are top pair, but ...

I think you meant less than top pair, as in Over Cards (usually 2 as in AK or AQ), middle pair or bottem pair, or maybe you start preflop with JJ as hole cards and the flop comes Q 6 3 or the like.


The truth is if you play less than top pair very often, without a good draw, you are going to bleed money.


Of course, there are times where some of these can be played, as has been mentioned -- it all depends. Are the pot odds there? Are you good at recognizing flops where this is possible? How many opponents? (The greater # of people still in, the less likely you want to play) How aggressive or passive are your opponents? Are you in late position so you might get a "free card"? What was the preflop betting like and how might the board have connected with that betting?


Basically your question was extremely open-ended, but I did want to be helpful.


The real answer .... read books. 2+2 has a listing of their books here under Books/Software

Point well taken; however, in your second example it may be correct to try to make a set on the turn, especially if there are close to 22 bets in the pot, there will not be a raise behind you, and you will get more action after you make it.


There are times when it is correct to draw with middle or bottom pair. You have 5 outs to make two pair which requires just 8-1 pot odds to see the next card if you think the two pair will be good. You can adjust this 8-1 up or down if you think you will win extra bets when you make it (implied odds) or down if you think you might be outdrawn.

Meant to say 5 outs to make 2 pair or a set. You also consider any backdoor flush or straight possibilities you might have.

mdlm,


You specified Low-Limit games. These games usually have a 4 thru 8 people seeing most flops. As I stated above, more opponents make it more likely that you should fold.


Players chasing with over cards or middle pairs in these games lose money. Say you have AK in the hole a raise after four early to middle position players limp into the pot, the blinds fold and the limpers call. The flop comes T 8 7, are you going to draw out with your overcards with this many opponents? Even if it is checked to you on the flop betting, you were the preflop raiser, so the players checking are often not showing any weakness. They may in fact be trying to check raise. Of course, in this situation you should check and take a free turn card, if there was a bet you should have folded.


As far as playing less than top pair being necessary to being an expert, I would assume that it does take such ability. When the nature of the game is tight -- two or three players seeing most flops, or the game is short handed, then overcards and middle or bottom pair are likely to be the best hand.


As far as specifically knowing how to play with these hands and knowing even when you can go on making a bet or a call on the flop round, this can't be answered with a few simple lines. There are hundreds of bits and pieces of specific experience and knowledge that comes together with much work, and this is after you have the basics down.


But just for a couple of common sense shots, I would play:


* If you have A4 suited in the late position and limp in with several others, the flop is 5 4 2 rainbow (I'd certainly go here)

* If you have AK and are in there with several others and the flop comes 3 3 3. Someone may have the case 3, but I want proof. I assume here that no one raised preflop except for you (you could still run into someone limping with a small pair, still worth the risk)