those crazy partypoker 5-10 6-max tables

[kelvin474]

I'm trying to get started playing the Party 5-10 6max tables.

How good is the following preflop strategy: Play it like 10-handed, where the first 4 player shave folded.

So when I'm UTG, I'm thinking about what i'd do if it was folded to me in MP.

I just played in a party 5-10 tbl and it was hyper-aggressive. Any raise out of the SB was getting 3-bet by the BB, and people were bluff-raising the flop and folding to 3-bets.
I have gotten into trouble often playing my current patchwork preflop strategy, which i don't even have a firm vision of. I mean, I'll muck Q8 on the button, then limp with Q9o the next hand in the CO. and not know why.
When i have trouble in these games, it's not from coldcaling raises, which i don't do. I believe it's from bluffing the flop too much, raising mediocre hands into people I know won't fold, and staying in when i'm facing heavy action and i hold something like TP, weak kicker or middle pair.

I believe i should tighten up preflop to avoid some of these situations- stuff like Q9 or K9 is the sort of hand i get into these problems with- flop will be Q J A and i'll bet and get raised while holding Q9o. bleh, what now? highly opponent dependent, i presume.

has it been others' experience that there are some hyperaggressive tables in party 5-10, 6-max? I observed some tables with much more limping- i presume a table full of loose passives is how to take down the money.
Thanks a lot to anyone who can help me with this- learning to play these shortet-handed games is going to help me a lot in my development I think, as i'm naturally somewhat conservative in playing my hands.

-kelvin474, who must become less tight-weak to play 6-handed.

[DocHollyday]

Hi Kelvin

I think you are mostly aware, where your weaknesses are. The preflop strategy is not too bad at all (play it like 10handed-4fold).

As we all know, we should lower our starting hand requirements when playing short handed. But don't forget, playing 6 handed is not that short at all. So still play tight, not too tight, but hands like Q9o belong definitly to the muck.

I don't know if you know Slansky's book about Texas Holdem (I think it's the first one about it). He put all starting hands in different groups. So I recommend first to buy that book because it is just damn good and second to play may be group 1-6 in short handed games. Depending on the game you should even play all groups (He put it in 8 groups), but not any hands which aint listet.

Hope this helps

[J.R.]

Value bet freely, rasie top pair, don't open limp, definetly don't play Q9o (and only K9o with an open raise from LP), don't be afraid to call down, and MOST IMPORTANTLY pay attention to who calls with A high, who makes big folds, who plays back at you and who defends there blinds.

Be patient, 6 handed is fairly close to a full game, you don't need to jump into every pot, especially when your opponents will pay you off when you do play a hand. Good luck.

[lil']

I just played in a party 5-10 tbl and it was hyper-aggressive. Any raise out of the SB was getting 3-bet by the BB, and people were bluff-raising the flop and folding to 3-bets.
There have been a lot of posts about the 6-handed 5-10 party tables lately.

Anyway, at any given time there are between 15-30 of these tables going. The table you were at sounds less than optimal. Get up and find another one. With this type of game selection, there's no excuse for sitting in a crappy game.

[kelvin474]

hi folks:

I've been paying more attention to the opponents (that has to be good, i would think) and notice who is just limping with too much stuff (i think there's more who do this at the 6max than at the 10-handed 5-10, anyone agree?disagree?), who will carry naked bluffs very far, etc.

As a result, i am getting a better feel for my preflop play, as i can get a better idea of how likely i am to get raised if i come in with KJo or something. Two hands that are real sticky for me are ATo and KJo UTG.

Regarding postflop play, I have had really good success with betting out my good hands and straightforwardly jamming them against small fields (1 or 2 opps.). I have a lot of success with people calling me down with (virtually) nothing all the way because they are used to snapping off habitual bluffers by calling with deuces all the way.

I don't checkraise as often as I hsould i think, I like betting out a good hand so much. To cut down on information leaking, I should mix up the checks and bets with the good hands- i can usualy get the money in with a checkraise if I like my hand, as so many players interpret the check as a license to bet and have me fold.

Mixing in more checkraises could earn me morefree cards when I check weak hands as well since they will not be able to auto-bet when i check.

I'm amazed by the plays people attempt sometimes. One I couldn't believe:

A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the BB. UTG+1 limps, SB raises, I 3-bet. UTG+1 calls 2, SB caps and I call, UTG+1 calls.

Flop Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks, I bet, all call.

Turn 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif SB checks, I bet, UTG+1 calls, SB checkraises. I call (thinking KK including K /images/graemlins/heart.gif or maybe even without it). This player may also have the T /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif here. UTG+1 calls.

River: 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB bets, I call, UTG+1 folds.

Showdown: SB shows T /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif. LOL! what a demonstration of postflop play. My Queen takes it down.

This hand was somewhat of a frivolous romp to post, but I'll be posting trickier hands with legitimate questions forthwith (actually, no earlier than sunday- moving to massachusetts - 1.5 hours from Foxwoods = weekly visits!!)

Thanks to all responders.
-kelvin474

[bugstud]

why is his play so bad? given that it's shorthanded I'd play TT like this almost all the time, given your descriptions/

[daryn]

i play these and the 10-20 6 max tables, and i play them hyper aggressively. i won't hesistate to bluff 3 bet the flop and come out firing on the turn, people will fold.

[soda]

Oh - you play the 10/20? I wonder what your name is???

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

soda

[Bokonon]

So you're the guy that keeps doing that to me?

I've been having a tough time adding that kind of aggression to my game. It seems every time I try doing that either the guy has top pair or he's calling me to the river with A-high. So I vary between playing it safe and just betting when I've got a hand (in which case I'm grinding out a very small BB/hour, and because I'm in weak-tight mode I'm likely to fall for hyperaggressive bluffs like the ones you describe) or aggressive/stealing mode, in which case it seems like I'm never believed and get called down by ace-high or bottom bottom pair.

Argh! I haven't played nearly enough hours to validate a given strategy (only about 100), which doesn't help either. Hence my post here . . . what advice can you -- or anyone else -- give on

1) Playing hyperaggressive (profitably!)
2) Countering (what seems to be) hyperaggressive play.

I'll add that what really steams me is when someone who is clearly far too loose and aggressive hits his two-pair or his ace on the turn or river. You know, the guy who plays quality hands like A2o or J4s UTG, and re-raises the flop (putting me in check/call mode unless I have top pair, and causing me to fold if I have no pair) and catches something that makes me look like an idiot for calling him down.

[J.R.]

Its not a matter of playing a certain way as it is a matter of maintaining a felxible style that permits adaptation so you can fully exploit your opponents' weaknesses.


I they fold frequently, raise; if they are real aggressive, induce them to bluff and check-raise them; if passive gt free cards; if they always call, don't raise pre-flop as much and value bet but respect their raises; if they switch gears and play tight/aggressive, find a new game.

In general, don't go on tilt and don't loosen up to much. Be patient, the bets will come to your stack, most of your oppoennt's are so bad at 5-10 that you won't be able to help winning.

[Ulysses]

Excellent post. I'll elaborate just a little here. Look for patterns. For example, this is a typical one (of many):

Bets the flop w/ one pair or better only. Will always call down to the river w/ a pair. Always check-raises the flop w/ a big hand. Never folds on the flop for one bet.

So, when I raise late w/ KQ or 88 and this guy checks to me on a A92r flop, I'm going to bet a lot less than I might against the guy whose pattern is limp/call w/ any two pre-flop, then check-fold if he misses the flop.

I'm playing mainly the 10-20 and 15-30 6-max now, but they seem very similar to the 5-10 games. My basic strategy is pretty similar in all of these. I usually enter the game in a pretty hyper-aggressive mode (though relatively quite tight), then back off and let all these guys burn their chips off to me.

[Bokonon]

That makes sense. And I do take notes on the players and look for patterns -- the problem is that against the very aggressive players it's difficult to put them on a style because to do so you have to see what they're holding, and that means going to the river (assuming that others at the table are folding to his aggression, and they often are). At the moment I'd say half the time I "look him up" he's got something. Lately, something only caught on the turn/river, usually with a crappy hand . . .

Must . . . resist . . . steaming!

On a similar note, I've noticed that the last few times I've reraised on the flop (always with top pair -- if I have anything more and I'll set up for a reraise on the turn) I've been the one betting out on the turn and river . . . and against all but the most idiotic of calling stations, it's all folded to me before showdown.

Making me wonder whether semibluffing or completely bluffing by reraising the flop might not be a profitable move to make a lot more often. Opins?

[daryn]

yes, you do wonder.

[soda]

Do you know who I am?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem is that against the very aggressive players it's difficult to put them on a style because to do so you have to see what they're holding

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't, though. What about the guy who leads the action all the way then folds to a bet or raise on the river? What about the guy who check-raises the flop then check-folds on the turn?

Actually, if you have the patience, I think a very profitable strategy in these hyperaggressive games is just super-tight and super-aggressive. You can afford to get blown off quite a few hands when you're taking down huge pots with the nuts.

[daryn]

no, do you know who i am? i really don't mind if you do.

[soda]

I don't know who you are, but I wish I did. I also wish I knew who Ulysses is.

But, not daveb - I don't give a rats ass about him.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

soda

[Lazymeatball]

It seems all I hear from people watching a mid to high stakes shorthanded game is that all the players are so bad. Is it possible that the style of play neccesary to win in shorthanded games looks like poor play when seen from full handed ring game players?

For example in SH people sometimes raise with crap, but very often it is in a steal situation on the button to pick up the blinds. Or people check raising the turn with nothing. Just overall aggressiveness, or occassionally calling down an aggressive player with bottom pair.

Many times a bad player incorrectly backs into a winning strategy by betting so often. How does one differentiate between a good player and a bad player in SH?


Am I missing something here, or are the Party $5-10 and above 6max players really the big bad gambling fish they appear to be?

[DaveB]

step off soda

I only play the 1/2 6 max. After today though, watching my opponents has fully convinced me that playing bottom pair to the river (where you apparantly automatically get trips) is the best approach in these games.

[soda]

LOL - solid strategy indeed. Hitting two outers against soda the chump is another winning strategy. Sorry to hear the bad luck DB - wyndup is on the prowl now too - maybe he'll start reading this stuff soon.

BTW - for that other guy in that other post - yes these games are full of fish, but so are the full ring games from what I hear. Can't wait 'til WPT2!

/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

soda

[Ulysses]

The best and worst players both use a lot of the same plays. The best players have much better timing.

[Bokonon]

As someone who is having an extraordinarily hard time finding out the correct timing for these plays (at the moment I'd probably do better to go back to playing weak-tight) you need to share a little more about this "timing" jazz!

When do you decide to turn on hyperaggressive mode and when do you not? My guess is that it has something to do with both the raggedness of the flop and what you might know about the players you're up against. And the degree to which your aggressiveness is semi-bluff vs bluff.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
you need to share a little more about this "timing" jazz!

[/ QUOTE ]

You miss your flush draw and are left w/ Ten-high. Guy who never bets w/out top pair or better and always calls down bets the river. It's bad timing to fire out a river bluff raise here.

You miss your straight draw and are left w/ Ten-high. Guy who plays his flush draws aggressively like he played this hand but can also lay down a small pair bets the river. It's better timing to fire out a river bluff raise here.

[J_V]

That is a very very good point.

[gcue]

GRRRRRR *prowls*

been reading, just not posting /images/graemlins/smile.gif

DB, your theory about bottom pair is not at all correct, bottom pair called to the river only catches trips 65% of the time









the other 35% their kicker pairs

[CORed]

A lot of the 5/10 6 max are pretty loose passive. On these, just play tight and show down the best hand. Preflop, playing as if you were at a 10 handed and 4 folded is exactly right. You should be raising a lot pre-flop, but don't get too loose with your starting hands, unless you find it easy to steal the blinds. Postflop, changing gears occasionally can be very effective. If you've been playing tight, and people start folding to your bets, start throwing in some semi-bluffs and maybe even pure bluffs on the flop. If you're getting called (or raised) a lot, tighten up and really pound your good hands. The best way to deal with hyper-agressive players is often to wait for a good hand (top pair top kicker or better) and play back very agressively. They will often slow down (or even leave the table) after you beat the crap out of them a few times. Don't be too quick to fold to a turn raise with a good hand, but don't call it down every time. If you semi-bluff the flop, and are heads-up on the turn, usually bet if you are first, and take the freebie if are checked to on the turn, but mix it up some. Also, check-raising flop and turn with good hands helps slow down agressive bettors.

[Vorlin]

I see you doing a lot of analyzing, particularly with things like KTo and AJo UTG.

Remember this:

1) Ten handed, the game is mostly about probability and math, with some psychology thrown in. Trouble with this is that the probability of being run down is exponentially higher with 5 morons who won't respect my raises!! This is why we go short handed.

2) HU play is 98% dog psychology and the ability to evade your opponent's strength and the remaining 2% of the outcomes are actually determined by the cards, which almost never see the light of day.

3) 4, 5 and 6 handed is a blend of the two. Sometimes it's about what you have, other times it's about what your opponent doesn't have. IE:

You have 77 and limped in because you don't want to get beat by 83o that hits the flop. There are 2 callers plus you makes 3. Flop comes AAJ rainbow. First to act checks to you, what do you do?

10 handed: Get the hell out!!! You have to fold because odds are that there were 2 single aces dealt and the odds are too high that they may have limped in to see a cheap flop. Forget even checking, just burn the cards before you have time to think.

6 handed: This is a judgement call but I'd probably bet and be ready to let it go if raised. More than likely, 2 people are going to fold. If the remaining player only calls, then you have to figure out if he's trying to catch or is reeling you in like a fish. This could get tricky on the turn and is more a matter of feel than anything.

4 Handed: Jam that bet in without hesitation. Sure, knowledgeble players will suspect that you're bluffing or semi-bluffing, but with AAJ on the board, finding out if you are or not could get really expensive... too expensive. Most people will withdraw and look to win a different hand.

Ken Warren put it really well:
"Poker is not a game of cards played with people, it's a game of people played with cards."

This is fairly true ten handed but gets more and more true as the number of players is reduced. In heads-up or three handed, you almost never see the showdown. If you almost never see the showdown then who cares what cards you have? It becomes a game of position and aggression that uses the threat of the board's possibilities more than your own cards. If they might fear the board in a very short handed game, bet like an axe murderer. But in ten handed there is a good chance that someone out there actually does like the board and you're going to get destroyed trying to intimidate them.

One other saying I heard that really applies once it gets to be 4 handed or less:
"It's no longer about what you have, but what your opponent DOESN'T have."

Example 2:
You have AK on the button, 6 handed. UTG folds, seat 1 calls, seat 2 folds, you raise, SB folds and BB thinks a minute and calls. Now seat 1 re-raises and you call... BB takes a long time to think but finally calls.

Flop comes 556 with 2 clubs. BB checks, seat 1 bets and you decide to call and see what the turn brings because you've been getting hurt recently because of no help for Big Slick from the board.

BB types into the chat: "One BB special, coming up!!"... and raises. Seat 1 folds, what are you thinking?

You have AKo, the board is 556 and a BB who seemed to grudgingly call 2 raises pre-flop is now in your face with a check raise on the flop. It's enough to make you think about taking up bowling instead of poker. Cr*p. You have to be behind, it's the only thing that makes sense. So you fold and look to win a different hand.

What did BB have? KTo. The only time anyone fears a rag flop is if the BB comes out swinging... and the BB knew that with a flop of 556 that the 2 pre-flop raisers almost had to have missed badly. So, for the BB, this hand isn't about what he has but rather about what they DON'T have... a 5 or a 6. He also knew that as the BB he'd be expected to hold just these kinds of cards... and used that to his advantage.

In 6 handed you first decide if you're going to see the flop. Then, you have a decision to make after every single flop... is this hand about what you have, or what your opponent doesn't have? If it's about what you have, play tight-aggressive. If it's about what he doesn't have, raise like an axe murderer.

Vorlin

[benping16]

[Ikke]

Bingo.