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View Full Version : How much should you be required to reraise in NL?


Rick Nebiolo
10-15-2003, 03:40 AM
To the best of my knowledge, the standard no limit rule for raises (not counting all in bets, where anything less than a full raise is “action only”) is as follows (this was taken from Bob Ciaffone’s online rule book):

“All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager.”

This means that if player A bets $20, player B must raise at least $20 making it $40. If player B makes it $40, the minimum player C may raise is another $20 to $60.

A better example is if player A bets $20, then player B makes a typical raise to $80 (raising $60), then player C must make a minimum raise to $140 (raising another $60).

In preparation for a inter-club rules meeting I’ve been rereading most of Bob Ciaffone’s old Card Player columns that deal with rules. In a December 29, 1995 column, Bob suggests an alternative rule for multi-handed no limit pots, which requires a raise to be at least the amount of the total bet (rather than raise only the size of the last raise). Bob mentions that the purpose was to prevent putting someone in the middle by using a series of small raises. Using Bob’s alternative rule, in the second example above if player A bets $20, then player B makes it $80 (raising $60), then player C must make a minimum reraise to $160 (raising another $80).

Which is the better rule and why? This question may seem silly to experienced no limit players who frequent bigger games where the action is rarely multi-way and raising is exponential, but the many small no limit games now being spread in Los Angeles often feature multi-way pots with small raises. This just doesn't look right to me.

Once again I’m just curious…..

~ Rick

Greg (FossilMan)
10-15-2003, 04:10 PM
I'm not sure which is better for the game, but I'm sure of one thing. I do not favor a rule which has one minimum raise rule for heads-up pots, and a different minimum raise rule for multiway pots. MUCH too likely to lead to confusion.

Whichever version you pick is not that important really. I probably prefer the current rule, where you must match at least the last incremental raise when you raise. However, I can see the advantage of the simplicity of the other version, i.e., the double the last total bet rule.

If you do go to the double the last bet rule, you'll need to make sure the dealers don't continue the current practice (in some rooms) of pulling in portions of the bet that have already been called.

What I mean, is if A bets T50, B calls T50, and C now raises to T250, the dealer would pull T50 off each stack, leaving A (and eventually B) facing the T200 raise. If you do this, it will confuse the situation is A should want to reraise the minimum. A might try to raise T200 more rather than the required T250 more.

Now that I've considered that issue, I say leave it as it is. Each raise must be at least the big blind, or at least the last incremental bet or raise of that round. With the continued exception of all-in bets.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Phat Mack
10-15-2003, 04:38 PM
I agree with Greg's analysis.

Bob mentions that the purpose was to prevent putting someone in the middle by using a series of small raises.

This is part of the game, a type of "implied collusion." I often make a small bet at the start of a NL ring game just to see who will make a small bet back at me. If I find a taker, I keep doing it periodically to encourage it. It's a method of reversing my position at the table and putting someone in the middle. As long as I'm doing it to them, and "they" are not doing it to me, it's OK. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

In the 60's, there was a betting format called "bet the raise." (It should have been called "raise the bet.") If player A bet 5, Player B could call 5 and raise 5. It would be 10 to Player C who could call 10 and raise 10. In other words, raises were capped by the amount it took to call. But these were caps, not minimum bets. I played Stud 7 this way, and pots got big quickly - it might as well have been pot limit.

Rick Nebiolo
10-15-2003, 05:33 PM
Greg,

I gotta go see my shrink so I only have time to reply to one aspect of your post /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure which is better for the game, but I'm sure of one thing. I do not favor a rule which has one minimum raise rule for heads-up pots, and a different minimum raise rule for multiway pots. MUCH too likely to lead to confusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rule would be the same (I think). In other words, the minimum amount of the raise must be double the total amount of all additional bets facing a player. In a multiway pot, this would be double the total of all raises the current player has yet to call. (Obviously this needs to be worded better).

Later,

Rick