Online Bankroll and Cashouts- Bad money management?

[KemAces]

Hi everyone, with online poker I always find myself cashing out nearly all of my profits everytime I get up about four times my original deposit (which isnt big compared to most of yours) and I leave a little less (give or take 5 or $10) than my original deposit to continue playing with. The way I look at it is that on the plus side I cashout profit and I cant loose any more money (say I go on tilt). On the negative side I want to have a big bankroll in my account so I can withstand bad beats and bust outs at tables. A pattern I have noticed is that I cash out all my profits and then leave a little money left to play, bust out with that, and deposit again a week later, and the process repeats itself.
Any ideas on a better way to manage my online bankroll?

thanks,
KemAces

[CrackerZack]

Don't cash out so much?

I tend to always have 200 BBs in my account. Less than most people here rant about, but if i go on a 200 BB losing streak, i need some time off anyway.

Seems like the boards recently have been strewn with people talking about how much they cash out, how big they play, etc etc... Is everyone here as good as howard lederer or do they just want some reassurance? You make the call.

[The Vegan]

This is a very common occurance. Many online players have a tendancy to want to lock up their wins and often cash out too much, too often. It is closely related to the so called "cash out curse."
Often what happens is a senario just like you describe. Someone deposits say $300 and they play something like 2/4. Already they are light on money for that limit, but things go well and they work that up to $1000. They then decide they need to lock up that win and cash out 600-700, leaving their account back down at 300-400. They continue playing 2/4, but now the inevitable downturn happens. They bust out their account and need to deposit again.
The amounts and limits vary from person to person, but the idea is the same.
It is my observation from personal experience and anecdotal evidence from several people I talk with on a regular basis, that underfunding online accounts is one of the biggest reasons that otherwise winning players lose online. Granted, if your poker "bankroll" that is combined monies from on and off line is sufficient for the limits you play then it shouldn't matter how much you actually keep in your online account if you don't mind shifting money in and out of your account all the time. This rarely holds true though and I think it is due to the psychological factors of seeing that account balance and knowing you have to put more money in if you lose it. It adds undue stress and can potentially make you play below your best.
Going back to our example low-limit player from before. He deposits $300 and is playing 2/4. After his first cash out he is back down to $300. He has a couple of losing sessions and now he is at $100. Rather than put more money in now, the tendancy is to wait until the account is either empty, or the player has "won his money back." Well with $100 at 2/4 it is easy to see that it is more likely the $100 will be lost. They then deposit their minimum again and try again, but more often than not they end up bleeding away the little bits of money they deposit and run through all the money they cashed out, and maybe more.

A similar occurance happens when people try to move up in limits while underfunded. The money usually dissapears even quicker then. Someone deposits $300 and plays 2/4. After working it up to $1000, they cash out $500 and start playing 4/8 because they are obviously ready to move up. Now they are playing higher than they were and are funded even worse than before.

Sorry for the long post, but now I feel I need to get into some suggestions so that we have a way to not fall down this horrible pit.

How you manage your online account depends greatly on your goals. If your goals are to always play the same limit and not move up, then I would suggest you place some seed money in your account, you don't have to have a "full bankroll" as long as you are aware you may be underfunded. You should strive to always keep 300-400 big bets in your account for the limit you play at. If you start out with less than that as your seed, then you should not cash out for a while, build it up past this point first. When you are above this level, you can cash out if you want the money for some reason. If you are below this level, you should not be cashing out. Your goal should be to never have to deposit more money into your account.

If your goals are more aimed towards working up in limits, then you won't likely cashout for a long time. The goal here would be fund your account with a seed, but then continue to grow your account. I would suggest your seed be at least 100 big bets. You should move up in limits when you feel most comfortable. Some people are interested in taking more risks. If this is the case, then you can move up with between 100-200 big bets of the new level. If you are more risk-adverse, you may want to wait until you have 300-400 big bets of the new level. You should keep building your account in this manner until you get to a point where you are happy with the limit you are at. You can then switch and begin treating your online account as in the first example. Now you begin regular cashouts as per the guidelines of the last paragraph.

The Vegan

[MaxPower]

If you have records of enough hours, you should compute your hourly rate and Standard Deviation. From that you can compute your bankroll requirments. See this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=genpok&Number=207100&fpart =&PHPSESSID=)

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
but if i go on a 200 BB losing streak, i need some time off anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

It would be difficult to argue with that advice /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[jasonHoldEm]

I look at my bankroll (and poker in general) as an investment. In a nutshell, the more money I put into my bankroll, the bigger limits I can "safely" play and the more money I make. Now obviously, this also requires studying the game and working hard to fix your leaks, etc...but this is essentially how I look at it.

I guess it all depends on the person. Obviously if you "need" the money you should be taking it whenever you need it (strike that, if you "need" the money you shouldn't be gambling). If you can be comfortable without it than look at it as an investment (or maybe somewhere in between take half of every dollar out and put the rest into your bankroll).

Eventually you'll hit your comfort ceiling (where you're not comfortable with the stakes you're playing, or your skills are not adequate to play a given level). At that point you drop down to the level below and you can cashout all your profits while maintaining your bankroll. I've recently been stuck at 2/4 because I'm without a job right now and I've been needing to cashout my profits to live on, but once I find a job I fully intend to continue working my way up the food chain.

Hope you got something out of my rambling post (sorry, it's late). /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

jHE

[Redhotman]

What I recommend is keeping the majority of your money you withdraw in your neteller account. If u need to bring some back it is a quick and easy process and it allows you to quickly fund other accounts, for instance the party bonus specials this past weekend.