View Full Version : Do You Follow Through??
NYplayer
10-13-2003, 07:35 AM
It's a pretty easy 10-20 game with 3 to 4 people taking the flop each hand. A player who I haven't played with before but who had been playing tight all evening raises UTG+1. it is folded to me in the cutoff and I reraise with JJ. The tight player says to me "kings again"? (i had won a big pot with pocket kings 15 minutes earlier.
both blinds call. SB is a weak player and BB is a average but slightly winning for this game player.
flop comes 5 7 8 rainbow.
it is checked to me, I bet, all three call.
Turn K (5 7 8)
checked to me, what's my action?
Inthacup
10-13-2003, 03:11 PM
Bet and watch them all fold as you laugh maniacally.
RollaJ
10-13-2003, 04:03 PM
I know this wont be the popular answer, but with 3 callers there If you bet you will probably be check-raised. by either AA, AK (most likely),78, set or str8....otherwise something lik Kx will call u down.
I check behind and call the river bet
can anyone fold QQ or JJ here, and do they call on the flop with AQ?
The situation is not clear cut, but if the answer is yes to the above, you should bet. You can most likely safely fold to a raise, but this play costs 2 outs and a big bet vs. a free card for you. However, If the others (or some of them) now fold QQ or JJ, you gain tremendously. Given your table image, at least with the first raiser, I would probably bet.
In other words, it depends on the opponents some. if you had QQ, there is much less reason to bet.
Dan Z.
ZeeJustin
10-13-2003, 04:32 PM
I'm with Rollaj on this one. Check and call a single bet on the river, but certainly not 2.
Roy Hobbs
10-13-2003, 04:35 PM
Absolutely. At this point, you are looking for a free showdown against fewer than three opponents.
I.Rowboat
10-13-2003, 05:20 PM
Do your opponents have the imagination to check raise you when a scare card hits?
If not, then bet the jacks, and feel comfortable about folding to a raise.
If they are capable of check raising to push you off your jacks when they DON'T hold a king, then you might be able to justify checking, although it leaves you more vulnerable on the river, especially if an A hits, or the board pairs low.
Personally, I think the better move is to bet, as this keeps the pressure on your opponents, and it has the added benefit of disguising future bets when you may have a more powerful hand. Yes, sometimes you are betting a hand which is already beaten and to which you cannot afford to redraw, but much of the time you be charging hands like 89s, A8s, and possible 99 and TT the larger sized bet they need to be charged to see the river.
Just my .02 cents...
Tommy Angelo
10-13-2003, 05:51 PM
"Turn K (5 7 8)
checked to me, what's my action?"
I'd bet every time except for those occassional times I didn't bet and wished I had.
Tommy
Roy Hobbs
10-13-2003, 06:01 PM
Depending on his image at the table, the king may be more of a scare card for his opponents than it is for him. I think this is one of the big reasons for betting.
Roy Hobbs
10-13-2003, 06:04 PM
Why not bet and check through on the river? This has the benefit of eliminating stragglers that could hit an overcard. If he gets checkraised, I think he's done with the hand. But I'm not confident that he's going to get checkraised, and I think that knowing that he has JJ has put blinders on a lot of people who are responding to this post.
RollaJ
10-14-2003, 08:17 AM
I may very well be wrong, and Id of course play it based on my feel of the table. But I know where I play people alway will call the preflop raiser when a raggedy board comes as long as they have over cards
DocHollyday
10-14-2003, 09:46 AM
I agree with rollaj. Why risking a check raise? And what is the benefit of eliminating stragglers who go for an overcard? The overcard has already hit the board. So there's only Q and A left. The cutoff seemed to be tight, so he's likely holding AK, or may be even better.
The only sense of betting here, is in my opinion to make the straight drawers pay, but chances are high, that someone already hit. I'd look at the river and then may be pay the river bet, or even muck my jacks.
Roy Hobbs
10-14-2003, 12:58 PM
Why are you so convinced that you are going to get raised? It's scared poker to think that someone must have a King. The worst thing that can happen is that you get raised, and then you can make a determination of what to do from there based on your read of the player. But you're going to lose a lot of money with Jacks if you can't protect them when one overcard hits the board.
RH
I think you need to bet with QQ also. There are 5 outers that might fold to a turn bet (or at least you charge them to chase). Overcards are not our only worry. Besides, in most cases, you have a fairly easy laydown if checkraised.
RollaJ
10-14-2003, 01:44 PM
What exactly do you put the UTG raiser on here if not AA, KK,QQ or AK. The only other hands possible are AQ or maybe TT with a long shot of JJ. So the chances you are behind are pretty good. Furthermore, I dont know about all players, but I need a heck of a hand to call 3bets from the SB or BB and I defend way too often.
daryn
10-14-2003, 02:16 PM
it's my experience that when someone calls your hand in this fashion, they usually have the hand right under it.. for instance:
"you got kings again?"
means
"i have queens"
phish
10-14-2003, 02:23 PM
Muck my hand and tip the dealer whatever I have left.
Roy Hobbs
10-14-2003, 03:27 PM
1. I don't know this player well enough to limit him down to these hands.
2. Even if you are beat, it's not guaranteed that he's going to raise if he puts you on a monster.
3. You can check through on the end.
4. If you check, you are guaranteed to face a bet on the river, and will have no idea if your hand is good if a blank falls. Why not invest that big bet now when it has the added benefit of increasing the chance that you will have the best hand at the end (assuming for the moment that your hand is best now)?
I do think a check would be justified if the turn was an Ace instead of a King.
RH
given the price paid by everyone to see the flop, it is very unlikely that someone has a 5 outer AND you are still ahead.
Dan Z.
While that may or may not be true, I am not sure how you say that makes a difference in the context that we are discussing i.e. is it more important to bet with JJ than with QQ?
There are 6 hands to fold out which beat your jacks, and one which ties, but no hands that you can fold out which beat queens, only 1 hand which ties.
Also, AQ is more of a risk to the jacks, and is less likely to be out against queens. Almost any other ace would have been folded or is AK.
I think we are getting our signals crossed, Dan and it's mainly due to the fact that I am not expressing myself very well...I'll use having the flu as an excuse :-).
What you say about why it's more important to bet with JJ (as opposed to betting QQ) is obviously correct but my point simply is that that those reasons have nothing to do (as far as I can see) with the presence of 5 outers being out against you and when you happen to be in the lead (or not for that matter). In that specific context, there is no difference between JJ and QQ.
I thought we agreed a couple posts ago that there were no 5 outers out there against us when everyone paid 3 bets pre-flop except the early position opener.
Even if someone played a suited connector, if they have a pair, they likely have 2 or have a gutshot also. These are the kinds of hands that can check-raise you out of a pot that you are winning or have many outs to win. It's just highly unlikely that there are 5 - outers out there against us that we should try to fold out. Slowplaying is much less dangerous when we are likely trailing hands that won't fold to our bet, and our opponents have either 2 outers or many outers if we are ahead.
Dan Z.
Your case is well supported. Good post.
NYplayer
10-16-2003, 01:26 PM
Thanks for all of the responses everyone. They were very helpful! I checked behind on the turn and the river was checked through also.
The original preflop raiser had QQ and took it down. I don't know if he would have folded to a turn and/or river bet.
Rob
RollaJ
10-16-2003, 02:06 PM
Interesting, if all had checked to me again on the river Id certainly bet.
bad beetz
10-16-2003, 02:48 PM
dude. if you bet the turn and he mucks thinking that any hand you could have three-bet a solid UTG raise with beats him now that a king is there and he folds (worst runon sentence, ever) then it's real, real good and it only has to happen very little and lets not forget that you might spike a jack on the river and then you get more money cause you bet the turn and more money is better than less money.
I think the "solid" player utg + 1 played this hand real bad like.
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.