Some questions concerning flush draws...

[laceratedsky]

Well you see, i have this problem, I like to chase flush draws. Because of this nasty habit, I no longer have any money in my poker account. So, I thought I would ask some advice from you guys. Here is some typical situations I run into on a regular basis.

Situation one:

In the big blind I have any two suited cards, one of the cards in my suit comes up, but my 2 suited cards are low and there are overcards on the board. What should I do? Do I fold? What if there is a raise in front of me? Do I call? My normal action is to bet out in this situation if it's checked around to me, and to call a single bet, sometimes a raise depending on my cards AXs, KXs etc.

Situation 2

In early position, I'd like to think my pre-flop play is pretty good, I don't call with crap and I raise with category 1 hands. So usually if my cards are suited it's something like AK, KQ, or QJ. When the flop comes and only one of my suit flops, and no pair is made, what should I do? I usually bet out, and call 1 raise here.

Situation 3:

In middle and late positions I will play suited connectors down to 98s and other suited cards like AXs, K9s and up, and sometimes Q9s and up. I obviously would also play any hands that I would have played in early position. Again the same question is asked, if no pair is made, only one card of my suit flops, and there are overcards on the board, what do you do? What about if there are no overcards, and no pair? What if there is a raise in front?

The thing is with these kind of hands, when I hit them, they are usually huge. I think that's why I chase them down so often. Also I mostly play $2/$4 at Party if that helps, just assume normal party games in these situations. Hopefully you guys can give me some help on this. It seems I get caught a lot with getting a turn card I like, but getting absolutely nothing on the river which leaves me with crap. Thanks again for taking time to read this.

[jbc]

Hey,

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Situation one:

In the big blind I have any two suited cards, one of the cards in my suit comes up, but my 2 suited cards are low and there are overcards on the board. What should I do? Do I fold? What if there is a raise in front of me? Do I call? My normal action is to bet out in this situation if it's checked around to me, and to call a single bet, sometimes a raise depending on my cards AXs, KXs etc.


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With low suited cards, with only one of your suit hitting the flop and overcards, look to get out this hand. Check/fold. You've got no position and little chance of a draw (10/47 on the turn, 9/46 on the flop). Plus, you're not drawing to anywhere close to the nuts with low suited cards. Be careful, it's one of those situations where you never really know what you're rooting for. I'll quote Jones (i think) 'look for a reason to fold.' If you got to see the flop free from BB, great, but don't marry the backdoor flush draw.

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Situation 2

In early position, I'd like to think my pre-flop play is pretty good, I don't call with crap and I raise with category 1 hands. So usually if my cards are suited it's something like AK, KQ, or QJ. When the flop comes and only one of my suit flops, and no pair is made, what should I do? I usually bet out, and call 1 raise here.

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Here, I think you're ok to bet out in EP to, as it's said, 'see where you're at.' You've got big suited cards (assuming you're talking overcards here?), and a backdoor flush draw. Playing overcards on the flop when it doesn't hit you in EP is tricky, but I don't disagree with betting out. But, if you're raised, I think you again look for a reason to fold. Unless I really knew the player, I wouldn't call a raise here. You've got no position, etc.

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Situation 3:

In middle and late positions I will play suited connectors down to 98s and other suited cards like AXs, K9s and up, and sometimes Q9s and up. I obviously would also play any hands that I would have played in early position. Again the same question is asked, if no pair is made, only one card of my suit flops, and there are overcards on the board, what do you do? What about if there are no overcards, and no pair? What if there is a raise in front?


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Sorry, won't try to answer these all, but of course in LP you are in much better shape with two suited cards, especially if they are overcards. I think you are definitely a plumber here, 'obsessed with the flush.' Wow that was bad, wasn't it? Anyhoo, when I'm in this situation, I basically severely discount flush hopes, though I will factor it if there are other draws (i.e. straight, etc.) and I have 2 overcards.

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The thing is with these kind of hands, when I hit them, they are usually huge. I think that's why I chase them down so often. Also I mostly play $2/$4 at Party if that helps, just assume normal party games in these situations. Hopefully you guys can give me some help on this. It seems I get caught a lot with getting a turn card I like, but getting absolutely nothing on the river which leaves me with crap. Thanks again for taking time to read this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I am generally in love with Axs as well. I'll generally play this just about anywhere, unless PF gets a bit too crazy. Like you say, when it hits, its huge. Beating the nut flush just doesn't happen that much. But, you need to be ready to ditch when the flop doesnt hit. However, I will say I'm not nearly as enthralled with Kxs or Qxs. I generally won't play under KTs or QTs, cause again, you don't really know what you're rooting for.

Hope this helps a bit.

jbc

[jstnrgrs]

Situation one:
You have a three flush with virtually no chance on wining the pot if you do not make your flush (because you said your cards are low). The odds against your making the runner runner flush are ~25:1. Consider that since your cards are low there is some chance that you may make your flush and then be beaten by a bigger flush. Also consider that even if the turn is a card of your suit you will most likely have to call another bet (this time a big bet) to see the river. When you consider all these things, you need the pot to be offering odds of ~10,000,000:1 to call a bet. The correct play is almost always to check and fold to even a single bet. (If you have two overcards then it might sometimes be worth playing since you may win if you pair one of them, but even if you fold in this situation, you are not loosing much.)

Situation 2:
see advise for situation one.

Situation 3
see advise above

Even though you hit huge when you hit these hands, it is still not usually huge enough to justify calling a bet with nothing but a three flush. Also note that hands like Axs, and sutied connecters like pots with many opponents. You can paly them if there has not been much pre flop raising at the table and there are other players in the pot already. If there is much raising pre-flop, then you may want to let go of some of these hands also.

[Max Weinberg]

Situation one is just terrible, but I think some others have covered that. Routinely betting a three-flush into the entire field is probably one of the quickest ways to empty your pockets onto the table. Check and fold unless you have a straight draw with odds to continue.

Situation two is kind of interesting, but it depends on the pre-flop action, player tendencies, and basically every piece of information that you have to work with. There aren't any real set guidelines as to how to play when you flop a three-flush with two over-cards, except that you should be more inclined to see the turn if you think your single pair hand will be good if it hits. It all "depends", to be cliche. I've bet a three-flush with over-cards into people, and I've check-called a three-flush with over-cards. It's all very dependent on the action and texture of the table.

In situation three just fold all that crap if it doesn't hit big. You gave nine-hundred different variables to this scenario that can only be answered by a situational analysis, so you can't just say "always call" or "never call" to any of these questions. Four-flushes are hard enough to complete as it is without going cowboy and trying to beat the 22:1 odds (or whatever it is, I don't know the exact number because you almost never need it) of making runner-runner flushes.

[Ed Miller]

Holding a 3-flush, two in your hand and one on the board, has relatively little value by itself. To make your flush, you will need to hit a parlay on the turn and river. The odds of hitting your parlay are 10/47 * 9/46 or about 1/24. To compare, the odds of spiking a set on the turn with an unimproved pocket pair are 2/47 or a little less than 1/24. So your backdoor flush draw is worth on the order of a two outter. It is actually worth less because you will need to call bets on two streets instead of just one to see your draw through to the end. Because of this, I generally value a backdoor flush draw by itself as worth somewhere around 1.5 outs.

It is rarely worth putting any money in on the flop if the only real value to your hand is your backdoor flush draw For instance, if you hold 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif on a board of K /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif, your hand has very little value. The importance of backdoor flushes is the value that they add to hands that already have some value.

Let's say that you have the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the button. Two players limp to you and you raise. Both blinds call, and the limpers also call. The pot is 5-way for 10 SB. The flop is Q /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. The SB bets, the BB folds, and the first limper raises. The SB will bet with many hands, but the limper will generally only raise with a queen. The second limper folds and it is your action. You should probably fold. You are getting 6.5-1 on your call, and you are likely drawing to 5 clean outs. You have a 5/47, or about an 8.5-1 chance to improve. Further, the SB may show up with a real hand and 3-bet, charging you more to draw to your middle pair.

If the flop were instead Q /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, you could consider calling. The backdoor flush draw adds about 1.5 outs of value to your hand. So now you may play as if you have a 6.5/47 or 6.2-1 chance to improve. If you don't expect the SB to 3-bet, then you can probably call the flop raise and take a card off. It is close, but without the backdoor flush chance, you have a clear fold.

[Joe Tall]

Nice job MK. Nice post.

[prolisa1000]

Im new to poker but if i have a Ah and 8h and i dont hit a heart on the flop i just fold the thang. i never usually play the ace hoping for a pair, becuase there are just too many calling stations at online games.

[BigEndian]

I'll add my $.02 on this bit:

In middle and late positions I will play suited connectors down to 98s

I generally play this hand two way in late position and only one way in middle position.

First if you're in late position, say the CO trough the SB and it's been folded to you or one caller and the table is tight. I will raise to try to take it there or isolate to one or two people and usually bet out from there regardless of what comes on the board.

Second if you can get a lot of passive play or only one raisor and get 4+ people in the hand aside from you, I will call and see the flop with this hand. If the flop doesn't mesh with my hand for 2-pair+ or a big draw, I'll usually get out depending on the texture.

Calling with this hand regardless of the number of players in the pot with you is a bad play imo.

- Groove

[Uppercut]

Dear Lacerated: In each situation you posted, you do not have a flush draw. You have a backdoor flush draw, which isn't remotely the same. A flush draw has a 2-1 chance of hitting by the river. A backdoor flush draw has a 24-1 chance of hitting on the river. This is a huge difference. I will only play a backdoor flush draw if I have already hit a high pair. (For example, I have A8s and the flop comes AT5 with one of my suit.) Otherwise, fold on the flop, because it missed you.

[jstnrgrs]

I'm new nyself, but I would suggest that just one heart on the flop is not enough to continue. With Ah 8h, I would only continue to play if the flop has one of the following:
1) TWO or more hearts
2) an ace (in this situation, I would usually fold after the turn if there are two or more raises in most situations since I may be out kicked)
3) an eight AND a large pot(in this case I have five outs usually, 3 aces, and two eights)
4) three cards 7 or less AND at least one heart AND a pot with at least ~7 small bets

If the flop were somthing like Kd 4h Jc, I would fold without giving it a second thought.