I WANNA MAKE A PROFIT!!!!!!!!!

[prolisa1000]

I love poker!! I have played online for free for a about a month now and have read both Hellmuth's and John Feeny's books on poker play, i am now playing for real money and everytime i make money i loose that money, i end up even. It frustrates me. I play very tight--only top 10 pair, sometimes a pair if it lands on the flop, and some Ax if it lands on the flop. Im afraid to raise even in a good position cause i wanna be 95% sure i will win when i do raise. I think this is my downfall i think, i just dont wanna go broke. what should i do??

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Read something other than Hellmuth's book. His advice is horrible.

[BruceZ]

I believe the poster is a no-limit and pot-limit player, and the Hellmuth advice may be less horrible for those games, though I haven't read it.

[crockpot]

[ QUOTE ]
the Hellmuth advice may be less horrible for those games

[/ QUOTE ]
well, if "always go all in preflop with JJ" is better to you...

[crockpot]

here is my 4-step program to success:

1. pick up hellmuth's book
2. pour lighter fluid on book
3. light match and drop it on book
4. go pick up winning low limit hold 'em and the theory of poker and reread each until you've absorbed them. then start at small stakes and move up as you win money.

[crackzone]

Hm...i agree... Begin with the theory of Poker, then move up to hold em for advanced players...maybe something by caro after that?? or what do u guys think?
But i just wonder...how does hellmuth write a bad book on poker? did this cross your minds? doesn't he have any credit for his work? haven't read him, so i don't know.. but why is it bad? and if so, why did HE write it?

[prolisa1000]

haha,

Your right, he did say that beginners should go all in with AA, KK..etc, but that piece of info i throw right out the window, i have had KK about 5 times and let me tell u, i only won one time with it. Had i done what he said i would have been broke a long time ago.
I do, however like what he says about suited connectors, and how NOT to play them very often, becuase more often than not they will not win. He says never play suite connectors less than 7-8, and i take that advice, Heck i dont even play AQ off, or AJ off, maybe i should fix my game, i just started playin AK off and i dont think i have won yet with it. Maybe i will raise with it the next time.

THANKS FOR UR COMMENTS, KEEP EM COMMING...........

[crockpot]

i think if you read these forums enough, you will find that no one respects hellmuth's play in any cash game. either he just plays that way because the money doesn't mean anything to him, or he's used to bullying people the way you have to in tournaments and has discovered that you can't do it in sidegames.

i think when phil wrote the book he set out to provide a shotgun method to learning poker. and to be fair, reading phil's top ten strategy won't make you a winner, but it will give you a better chance to have a winning session than picking up any other book for five minutes.

see if you can get as far as "phil's strategy - reraise with nothing". that describes how he plays on UB at all games from NL .10/.25 to $80/$160.

[onegymrat]

Prolisa,

I'm not sure when you say that you're afraid to raise, is it preflop or postflop? There are certain number of hands that you definitely should raise preflop, some in any position, some in certain positions. I'm sure all the poker authors will agree on most of the hands in question.

As far as postflop play, it's going to take experience and hours. It's very hard to pinpoint what hands you flop that you should raise with and general stuff like that. One advice I have is to pay attention to what wins and what doesn't, keep that in your mind so that the next time you have that hand, you'll know what to do. One thing I'm certain of. If you're afraid to raise in the course of a hand, two things are happening: you are leaving profit on the table on the hands you win (which is almost the same as losing) and the hands you are not driving out behind you with a raise are beating you in the end (which also mean you are losing).

Poker is a game of uncertainty and incomplete information. If we had all the answers, we would win every session. But since we don't, we go by experience and statistics. You WILL lose some hands you have raised, but if you are raising with the right hands and at the right time, in the long run, you will profit so much more. Hope this helps. Good luck.

[AliasMrJones]

Hellmuth's book was the first one I bought based on a quick flip of it and a couple of others at the bookstore. It covers multiple poker games and is quite thick compared to other books, plus has lots of nice quotes from well known poker players on the cover talking about how good Phil and his book are.

The book does introduce the concept of playing tight (Phil's top 10 hands) which is ok, but it is VERY light on any practical advice. It seems to be meant for beginners, but doesn't follow through with any real meat for any of its topics. So, you end up with something written for beginners, but with just enough info to get someone who doesn't understand the game into trouble. It mentions things like pot odds, but doesn't go into how the heck to make use of such a thing while playing. It says things like after a while with better position you can start playing A-x suited, without really going into detail about when and how to play it, but does say to make it 2 bets to go. It says to raise with medium pairs and then represent whatever hits on the flop. Huh? In any of the low limit online games I've played, this will get you killed. It talks to the reader as if the reader understands the game, but pretends to be a book for beginners so in the end there is nothing of interest for advanced players and not enough fundamentals to make it worthwhile for beginners. (In fact, as I said before it will probably cause problems for beginners trying to make use of the little info there is.)

I started playing $.25/$50 on UB after reading Hellmuth's book and broke even or was slightly profitable. After reading Jones' book I started beating the low-limit UB and have since read Sklansky and am now beating Party $2/4.

I haven't really picked up Hellmuth's book since moving on to the much better books so the above is what I remember from reading it.

My advice would be to pick up Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold 'Em and study it and play it for a while at $.25/50 or if on Party at $.50/1. After you're beating these games, get Hold 'Em For Advanced Players by S & M and start to move up in limits. I actually bought Sklansky's Hold 'Em Poker with Jones' book, but found Jones to lay out how to play low limit online poker in an easy to understand and put to use way. (His book isn't written specifically for online poker, but I found it fit low limit UB and Party perfectly.) Also, I found the best way to digest poker books is to read all the way through once, then go back through a section at a time. Pick a section and read it, then try to put it into practice, then read another section, etc. Then re-read a section and play, etc. I probably went through WLLHE at least 3 times this way. I'm continuing to re-read and work through HEFAP the same way.

These are all the ramblings of a relative newbie, so take it with a grain of salt. But I've been happy with where it has gotten me so far.

[Louie Landale]

You cannot escape the fluctuations. If you fail to raise unless you are SURE you are giving away far too much money. This will NOT "insure you break even", it will "insure you lose": money you fail to win is just a much a loss as money to call hopelessly.

And besides, how much can a "loss" cost you at the micro-limits? Going broke when you have a job really only means you don't play for a week. That's not a disaster to be avoided at all costs.

- Louie

[biggambler]

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I started with Hellmuth, but found I could do no better than break even also. Read HPFAP and started beating the low limit games at Party. Am now reading Jones and Theory, and wish I'd started with them. Am beating the $1/2 game regularly, but keep getting spanked at $2/4. I only have about 300 hands at $2/4, but am very risk adverse, so I move up, lose $100+, move down, win it back, repeat.

[jasonHoldEm]

[ QUOTE ]
here is my 4-step program to success:

1. pick up hellmuth's book
2. pour lighter fluid on book
3. light match and drop it on book
4. go pick up winning low limit hold 'em and the theory of poker and reread each until you've absorbed them. then start at small stakes and move up as you win money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Crock I disagree. You should never destroy such a valuable money making tool as Hellmuth's book. Just give it to a "friend" who wants to learn poker and reap the benefits. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Heck i dont even play AQ off, or AJ off, maybe i should fix my game, i just started playin AK

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've got a problem that can't be fixed with books or advice. If you are playing so tight that you don't even play AQo, then you simply aren't getting involved in enough hands. Without getting into more hands, you aren't going to develop your post-flop skills.

Your comments about KK are rather absurd.

If you're playing no-limit, you should stop and move to a limit game where you can gain experience by playing a reasonable number of hands.

[crockpot]

i tend to value my friends too much to watch them lose their money, and i doubt my enemies would trust hellmuth's book if i suddenly gave it to them.

i took the easy route and sold mine on ebay, only losing a couple dollars off my purchase price. that felt good.

[Still the Spank E]

Well, because not everyone's willing to risk their entire tournament calling with anything less than the pre-flop nuts(i.e., AA or KK), Hellmuth's going all-in with JJ isn't necessarily a losing play in PL or NL tournament competition. He seems to do okay.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Actually, Hellmuth pretty much hates preflop all-in confrontations. He's a much more conservative tournament player than Ivey, Hansen or Flack.

[slavic]

nice post

[BogeyWan]

I do the very exact same thing! I am also a relative beginner. Been in very loose friendly home games for a few years, but just in the past few months began to play seriously on-line. I think my impatience along with my limited bankroll for poker causes me to become very timid at higher limits. I normally do very well at low limits and in tournaments because of the limited potential loss. I'm much more aggressive with good hands, whereas it's very easy to make me fold a hand at higher limits unless it is the nuts or very close. More often than not, I know the "correct" play, but just can't make myself pull the trigger at the higher limits. Does anyone have any jedi mind tricks to overcome this other than just having a bankroll big enough to make the limits you are playing seem relatively small? I've read Theory of Poker, HEPFAP, and Super System, so I guess I'm going to have to read Hellmuth's book just to see what all the hubbub is about.

[DeliciousDi]

I played online freerolls for 6 months before I started playing for real money and it wasn't my money - it was money I had won playing freeroll tournaments on Dynamite and PokerStars, a little bit of cash in my accounts and in a few months I was able to start playing in tournaments with entry fees of $3.00 to $10.00 and now I'm playing with the big boys - and I've never made a deposit.
It seems to me that you are playing a tad tight.
Buy, beg, borrow or steal a copy of Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit Hold'Em" and read it several times before you begin to study it - then study it while you play in freerolls until you are able to identify your mistakes as you make them - and as you make them again and again until you no longer make those mistakes. Learn how to play position, overcards, dominated hands, suited connectors, pot odds and all that very basic stuff and then, much later, move up to David Sklansky"s "Tournament Poker For Advanced Players" for what you can get from it - what you will get is what you can use in your level of play. By then you will know the three most important elements of poker:
1. Position
2. Position
3. Position
You seem to be concerned about going broke - playing in Hold'em ring games is a really fast way for a beginner to go broke.
Play in tournaments. Play freeroll tournaments until you understand the structure of tournaments and begin finishing "in the money" often enough to feel comfortable playing in tournaments - but DO NOT play like those freeroll players do (they are the fish of dreams) even if they beat you a lot. They won't beat you in real money tournaments - the only advantage they have in freerolls is that there is so damm many of them in the tourney, some of them have to get super lucky - play like Lee Jones says and bet'em when you got'em and fold'em when you don't. Forget bluffing in freerolls and low limit: you will get called 109% of the time.
Play in tournaments because you can control loss. A tournament might last several hours, and at PokerStars you can enter a $3.00 tournament with hundreds of dollars in prizes or a $20.00 (plus $1.00 or $2.00 admin fee) tournament with a first place finish of maybe thousands of dollars, and some money all the way down below 8th place. If you entered two PokerStars $3.00 tournaments in one day, you would play for hours and lose at the most $6.00, but if you placed first in one of them you would be at least probably $400 or more ahead for the day and you have an excellent chance of picking up $20 or more.
The best thing going on in freerolls right now is SkillPoker.com (no I don't work for them and no I don't care what the forum sourpusses have to say about anything, unless they have some facts). SkillPoker has 8-player freerolls during the day for play money, but in the evenings they have 16 and 32 player tournaments where the winner gets $50.00 and second place gets $50.00, payable when SkillPoker's Cashier is operational, pretty soon.
I've played 21 tournaments with them in the week past, placed first or second 3 times and won a special tourney for $100.00 and now I have $250 on deposit there, not such a bad week with no entry fees or expenses - other players have been there over a month and some have upwards of $2,000 on deposit.
There are some very good poker players in those tourneys but the better your opponents, the more you learn playing against them, and it is freeroll, for now at least.
If you have any questions, I don't chat much during the tournament but you can email me at knowmags@yahoo.com.
Good Luck!
Unless you're seated at my table.

[DeliciousDi]

Possibly the worst mistake a beginning tournament player can make is to adopt a playing strategy based on the outcomes of hands played.
It's like saying that all Indians walk in single file, at least the only one I ever saw did.
It's like flipping a coin with heads landing 48 times in a row and saying from now on you're calling "heads" on every flip you ever again make.
Suited connectors down to 5,6 are pre-flop powerful on the BB with no raise in front and Sklansky's "System" calls for your All-In there, otherwise check/fold against a raise in front.
Personally, I don't All-In often enough and that is a weakness in my game - those dern rag chasers do get lucky on the flop with their J,4 offs, leaving me wishing I had blown them out.
There is no difference between 7,8s and 5,6s: that is, what I mean is, the % difference is so small it won't make any difference in actual play - if your 6 high flush is a loser then I'll go All-In every time that your 8 high flush is also a loser, and both lose if four cards of your suit show on board at the River.
In high buy-in tournaments you won't want to see many flops, but in freerolls and low buy-ins your best decisions will be made on the flop - and against limps amd small bets, go for those gut shots and runner/runner "raise and pray" situations WHEN the pot odds are good.
Raise on the flop for a free card on the Turn.
If you have something like A,9o and the flop comes something like K,K,K bet 5 times the pot and you might get called, but not likely by a K or A in the hole (then you might get raised) and you have ruined the pot odds for potential callers. That play almost always wins.
Basically, I call everything in EP with any of the Top 16 hands, call every thing in MP except huge raises with any of the Top 24 hands and call in LP with no raise in front with any of the Top 42, otherwise fold.
A lot does depend on the seeming flow of the game your are in (a flow that can change quickly in an online tourney) but I don't see how you can play more tightly than the above with hope of seeing some money.
And when you reach that final table, that AJo is a powerball in your pocket; and with three players remaining JTs is a mandatory All-In - and you All-In with K,K even if you have lost with it the last 755,587 times you've played it.
None of that is written in stone and no laws apply (there being no such thing as the 'law of averages') but the general idea is LOOSEN UP!!!!!! AKo is worth a few BB bets, AQo stinks in EP but is worth a call in LP with no raise in front (also good for a call in MP with no raise in front if you have a good size stack) and if you are chip leader or need to wim more chips fast, unsuited connectors down to 5,6 might be worth a small bet and if you get a good piece of the flop, play it out and BET THE RIVER!!!!! if you badly need more chips.
There are no "good" pockets and no "bad" pockets.
Forget about hands you have lost in the past.
Two cards are good or bad for you depending on things like your position, your stack size, your table ranking (bet hard against a player ranking ahead of you and bet softly against a player ranking behind you: why let him catch up to you? just fold.) And there are times when the best thing to do is go on Post/Fold.
You are trying to play a simple game and the game is not simple, it is complicated but understandable, if never to be mastered.

[RydenStoompala]

Listen to Dynasty. He's right.