Good hand for newer players to examine [Archive]

Mike

10-12-2003, 02:08 PM

I thought this hand had a lot of lessons in it for newer players so I decided to share it. It's a $4-8 LAG game, and has been this way over an hour now. Button is seat seven. Button is an experienced player, but for whatever reasons never raises, he also has a tendency to fold the river. He has a friend in seat ten whom he tells, "I am raising this hand, no matter what." I would also like to note that player on my right has been playing erratically, I didn't think he had a lot of experience. He told me a short time later he had been playing 30 hours straight.

Preflop UTG comes in raising, two calls and another raise, called to me. I'm in the CO with JTo, I call. Button true to his declaration raises. It's back to me with a family pot, pot capped preflop, 20 BB in the pot.

Flop comes down 6,4,T with two clubs. I have top pair and an overcard to the board, my Ten is a club, life is good. SB bets out, called to me I raise, Button re-raises, folded to player on my right who calls, I call. Pot size beyond normal comprehension, no oint in counting any higher.

Turn is the King diamonds, I see player one flinch, he must have folded KK, that's a relief. Player on my right checks, I check because I am sure Button will bet and I want to raise as the Button and Player on my right are both visibly in pain. Button checks!!!! Not good for me, I am sure not betting out has just cost me the pot.

Turn is 2 clubs. Board is now 64TK2 with three clubs. Player on my right checks, I bet, Button holds his hand so seats eight -> ten can see it as he mucks. Player on my right is in real pain, he starts to put out his call, pulls it in, repeats this four times. Finally he throws in his bet, and flips over JJ.

I muck my JT face down. Button groans, seat one swears and is reprimanded by the dealer, seat nine is also mumbling loudly, but not in English. Seat ten tells me Button threw away AA.

hockey1

10-12-2003, 02:26 PM

This post must be a joke, right?

You cold called a 3-bet with JTo, with a button who has promised to raise behind you.

The flop hits your ten -- and you've got that whopping J kicker. You're against five players in a pre-flop capped pot and you think you're ahead? Given that you've already gotten yourself into this mess I guess raising is the best play.

Turn is a K and you're looking to check-raise. Maybe as a bluff. But against 3 (or is it 2?) players, and a huge pot that's pretty unlikely to work. You can't possibly think you still have the best hand unless the players you're up against are utter maniacs.

The post-river play confirms that you were behind . . . everyone . . . the whole way.

And the lessons for beginners are?

chesspain

10-12-2003, 02:33 PM

Two questions:

1. How could you possibly think that someone threw away pocket kings before the turn? Or did you mean a paired king (which you should state as Kx)?

2. Why are you coldcalling three bets (!!!) PF with garbage like JTo?

You will be broke before the Red Sox are busted out of the post-season if you continue pissing away money like this.

gonores

10-12-2003, 02:45 PM

Preflop - Calling with JTo for 3 bets is terrible, regardless of the situation.

Flop - I'm not really sure how I would play this, since I'd never play this preflop. I guess I would try a raise since I wouldn't be sure if the button really did blow a fuse when he capped it. After the reraise from the button, I'd give him credit for an overpair. If I knew he had a history of insanity, I'd consider taking my unimproved 10 to the river, given the pot size. However, I am worried as hell about the guy to your right having you outkicked.

Turn - Planning to raise here is nuts. Why do you want to raise here with 2nd pair, weak kicker? If you really, really think you have the best hand, your best play is to bet into the button, hoping he will raise and knock out the guy to your right. The pot is huge and making people fold is your top priority.

River - *shrug* I don't know why you would bet here. Do you honestly think people will call with a worse hand or do you think you can make two people fold with the incredibly huge pot?

Diagnosis - Reasonable players don't lose a single dollar in this pot. You could consider yourself lucky to come in second on this hand.

I'm not sure what lessons newer players can learn here. I don't think any of the players in this hand employed any logic into this hand. However, I am guessing that Sklansky could find more than a couple crimes against humanity in this hand.

Doug

GuyOnTilt

10-12-2003, 04:05 PM

Why is this a good hand for new players to look at?

First off, JTo is trash; this is definitely something that new players need to learn. When I first started, I overvalued JTo WAY too much. Now I rarely ever play it at all, and definitely never in a raised pot.

Secondly, why do you like that flop so much? After the preflop action I would be worried about getting trapped with a 2nd best hand, and after the betting on the flop it would be pretty obvious to me that I'm behind.

Thirdly, why in the world would you think that somebody would fold KK on that flop?

Fourthly, do you think this is a good hand for newbies to examine because you played it well? Or because you played it like a fish?

rxl182

10-12-2003, 10:56 PM

As a relatively new player myself, a few things didnt make sense. I dont understand calling three cold w/ j-10o, even if you say that the raisers were loose. I would think that this hand still isnt strong enough. The other thing, if the players were telling the truth, is who would give up K-K on the flop and especially who would give up on A-A anytime in that hand? The board seemed perfect for those hands. Maybe I'm missing something or this post isn't for real.

Mike

10-12-2003, 11:45 PM

I guess I can add some ideas I think are interesting because a few of the responses so far are a little slim in any real content.

Remember this was a family pot with ten players seeing the flop capped. There will be a lot of dead money in the pot by the river, the pot has 20 BB in it preflop.

1. When someone hasn't raised a single hand in three hours and announces to his friend that he is raising regardless of his hand, a raise from him does not mean much. It's the same as a straddle by utg.

2. What could the six players who folded on the flop possibly be holding that they thought it was worth 2 BB just to see the flop?

3. What about SB's initial flop bet? What could SB have been holding that was worth a bet, but folded to a raise he knew was coming.

3. If you come into hand like this with AA, and you play it to the river, with a pot size of over 23 BB you don't fold to a final river bet.

4. If you are playing a flush draw in a game like this, make sure it is the nut flush. That way you have something to fall back on if your flush doesn't happen.

5. Playing 30 hours straight is just plain stupid.

6. Don't count on another player to do what you want them to do.

7. When a game is Loose and Aggressive, you need to determine before you throw the first bet(s) in how far you are willing to take your hand. If you don't think it's worth going to the river if you get a piece of the flop, fold before committing any your money. If you do committ play your hand, don't just call.

I am sure there are a few thoughts I missed.

Now for you experts who added so much value to the thread with your informative replies:

I feel very comfortable playing JTo with nine other players in the hand with me, if you don't, oh well - play little, win little, be happy.

9:1 is 9:1, whether it's one sb or four sb's. 9:1 on my money knowing there will be a lot of dead money in the pot makes a lot of hands playable that normally aren't worth even one bet.

Losing at the end to JJ, hmm...sounds to me like I lost with second best hand, not a bad end starting with ten players on the flop. One more little waver by the player on my right, and the pot would have been mine without even showing my hand.

AA folded, two other players were very unhappy, I think I did all right with the lemon flop I had to work with. I would play it almost the same way with the same flop and similar players any time. Of course I didn't have the advantage of knowing the results ahead of time like you did (If I had won the hand, you never would have read about it). I counted on what the players in the hand were probably holding and what they weren't. I didn't give credit for any hand except mine benifiting from a T64 flop. They gave me credit for holding more than I did, their loss.

Oh, and did I mention it was Loose Aggressive Game with a family pot of ten players? Let's see, I did mention there were lots of lessons for newer player didn't I? Let me check, oh yes, I did.

And the most constructive thoughts you can come up with is how bad the hand was played? Do you actually start reading at the top of posts and think about what's being said or do you just skim to a part you can bad mouth?

So are we here to share ideas, and learn? Or are we just here to post hands that were played brilliantly in our eyes for all the forum readers to admire, and to badmouth other posts even when they aren't intended for us to start with?

I would be ashamed of myself if I posted some of the thoughts in a few of these replies. And they are complaining that RGP has gone down the toilet bowl?

Mike

10-12-2003, 11:49 PM

All I can say with any certainty is that one player was real unhappy when King diamonds showed up on the turn. I am guessing that he wasn't holding Kx or XXd because that would have made little difference if he was at all rational.

Mike

10-13-2003, 12:03 AM

This was a family pot, I am in the cutoff which is next to the button. Button announced he is raising before the hand was dealt so that is two bets to me before the hand is even dealt. No different than a straddle. The game is very loose and very aggressive. it looks like I am going to get 9:1 for my money. IMO this makes JTo a calling hand in the cutoff.

One player was unhappy when the King of diamonds showed up on the turn. I can't imagine why unless he threw away KK.

The Button throwing AA flashed his hand to seats 8,9,10. Seat ten told me that Button threw away AA. Seats 8,8 agreed that is what he had. If you re-read the beginning of my first post you will notice I mentioned he had a tendency to throw away his hand on the river. His error, my gain.

I thought the board was pretty good for my holding. I had top pair, top pair is top pair until you're told otherwise. No one told me otherwise. JJ simply called all the way. If I am raising, it's not unreasonable to ponder that maybe I have a set of Tens.

Vehn

10-13-2003, 12:17 AM

I hope you have a house because you'll need a place to sleep when you're broke.

chesspain

10-13-2003, 12:20 AM

Mike,

The fact that you are enamored with your own observational and analytical skills, and insist on repeatedly driving home the same points, make neither you nor the hand played interesting or educational.

Let the memory of this hand die a merciful death.

gonores

10-13-2003, 12:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. When someone hasn't raised a single hand in three hours and announces to his friend that he is raising regardless of his hand, a raise from him does not mean much. It's the same as a straddle by utg.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but unless it appears that he just blew a gasket, any show of aggression beyond the initial raise is worth noticing.

2 & 3 - truth can be found in these too.

[ QUOTE ]
4. If you are playing a flush draw in a game like this, make sure it is the nut flush. That way you have something to fall back on if your flush doesn't happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where in this hand do we find this lesson? If the game is this loose and aggressive, you can draw to any flush because when you hit you get paid off big time.

5 - 7 you learn any time you sit down to a table.

[ QUOTE ]
I feel very comfortable playing JTo with nine other players in the hand with me, if you don't, oh well - play little, win little, be happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll stay away from lottery ticket comments, but you could easily rephrase this to "any two can win." The first weapon new players should develop is selectivity in starting hands. If you are going to play JTo in a capped pot, what hands won't you play? I'd honestly play 54o in this situation before I'd play JTo, because I would be assuming some of my bigger cards would be possessed by the raisers and callers in front of me. You know you are dominated coming in to the flop, and I can easily assume you had less than a 9:1 chance of coming out of the flop ahead. Furthermore, being in the CO, you had no clue how the rest of the field would react to the cap, meaning you could be against an even smaller field.

[ QUOTE ]
Losing at the end to JJ, hmm...sounds to me like I lost with second best hand, not a bad end starting with ten players on the flop. One more little waver by the player on my right, and the pot would have been mine without even showing my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't lose with the second-best hand, you lost with the third-best hand...the button folded #1. Would you honestly believe he would fold AA for a single bet in this pot before you bet at it?

Your primary post has a lot of illogical play, even if we accepted that some of your assumptions are correct. Your plan for a turn check-raise is crazy, even if you do assume you are ahead. You river bet won't make a logical person fold a better hand, and I seriously doubt worse hands will call you. I can guarantee you will not win more than 2 or 3 pots that size in your entire life without a showdown.

As for your reaction to our responses....get a grip bro. If you read any threads other than this one on this board, you will realize that posts rarely get "badmouthed" around here. You posted a very poorly-played hand, and you had the audacity to title this thread a good hand for new players to examine. Is it true that new players will learn from your post? Yes...I'd like to think that new players can learn something from every hand post on this board, but I don't see why you think this hand is so special.

Doug

GuyOnTilt

10-13-2003, 01:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. When someone hasn't raised a single hand in three hours and announces to his friend that he is raising regardless of his hand, a raise from him does not mean much. It's the same as a straddle by utg.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're right in that his raise doesn't mean he has much of a hand. But you're wrong that you can't use that information to make better decisions preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
4. If you are playing a flush draw in a game like this, make sure it is the nut flush. That way you have something to fall back on if your flush doesn't happen.

[/ QUOTE ]
What is this supposed to mean? To me this is a stupid statement, and not at all applicable to winning poker.

[ QUOTE ]
5. Playing 30 hours straight is just plain stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've played 30 hour sessions before without ever going on tilt or deviating from my A-game, as I'm sure other posters on this forum have as well. Just because you can't handle long sessions, or because somebody at your table was a little tilted after 30 hours of play doesn't make it "stupid."

[ QUOTE ]
6. Don't count on another player to do what you want them to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhhh...

[ QUOTE ]
7. When a game is Loose and Aggressive, you need to determine before you throw the first bet(s) in how far you are willing to take your hand. If you don't think it's worth going to the river if you get a piece of the flop, fold before committing any your money. If you do committ play your hand, don't just call.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's much more to playing winning poker than just looking at your hand and determining whether it's good enough to proceed. Don't give newbies to the game simplistic advice that really won't teach them how to play good poker. If you wanted to tell them something important about L/A tables, you could say that they'll have higher deviation, need a bigger bankroll, be ready for swings, tighten up preflop, know that draws will cost you more to play, thereby decreasing your implied odds, and so on. Also, there are plenty of times to be calling and not raising.

[ QUOTE ]
Now for you experts who added so much value to the thread with your informative replies:

I feel very comfortable playing JTo with nine other players in the hand with me, if you don't, oh well - play little, win little, be happy.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is probably the stupidest thing you've written so far. JTo is a horrible hand to start with. Calling 3 bets cold with it preflop is just plain LOSING POKER. What type of flop are you hoping for with this hand??? Also, the fact that this is a family pot DECREASES the value of your hand. How well do big offsuit cards play in multiway pots? HORRIBLY. If you're playing the hand ONLY for it's straight potential (thus your mention of the pot being 10-handed as a GOOD thing) then my guess is that you're a losing player who is no position to give out advice to newbies. JTo in a capped family pot...that's just plain hilarious!

[ QUOTE ]
9:1 is 9:1, whether it's one sb or four sb's. 9:1 on my money knowing there will be a lot of dead money in the pot makes a lot of hands playable that normally aren't worth even one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
And just when I thought you couldn't say anything more ignorant, there's this statement!!! So let me get this right: a lot of hands that you'd fold for one bet preflop, you'd call for 4 if it was multiway??? Wow, that's really cool of you. Have fun with your bankroll while you have it.

[ QUOTE ]
And the most constructive thoughts you can come up with is how bad the hand was played? Do you actually start reading at the top of posts and think about what's being said or do you just skim to a part you can bad mouth?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but when the title of your post infers that you're trying to teach people something, and then the hand starts out with you calling 3 bets cold with absolutely trash, it's hard to take seriously. Honestly, I don't think you should be giving out BAD ADVICE to people on this forum, and if I see anybody doing it, I think it's my responsibility to question it. If it turns out I'm wrong, then I get to learn from my mistakes along with anybody else reading. That's what this forum is for, isn't it?

[ QUOTE ]
So are we here to share ideas, and learn?

[/ QUOTE ]
Both. Why do you infer that it has to be one or the other?

[ QUOTE ]
Or are we just here to post hands that were played brilliantly in our eyes for all the forum readers to admire, and to badmouth other posts even when they aren't intended for us to start with?

[/ QUOTE ]
How many hand posts have you seen here that were just looking for a pat on the back? Most of the serious poster on this forum post hands that they found challenging or interesting. As for the post being directed at newbies and not to me specifically: Again, I think it's my responsibility to question anything that I don't think is correct, especially when it's being "taught" to others. If I see something I don't agree with, I'll make a response that I don't agree, and then we can have a discussion of the pro and cons of the particular play or concept. That's what we're here for right? But letting misinformation be posted on this board without correction would be wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
I would be ashamed of myself if I posted some of the thoughts in a few of these replies. And they are complaining that RGP has gone down the toilet bowl?

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that this board is becoming more and more like RGP, and it saddens me. Every day I see more and more non-poker related posts on our SS Forum and I hate it. But when posters make responses to a play you made saying that they think it's a mistake, you should try and learn from it. Instead, you become this stuck up guy who thinks he can do no wrong and then goes off and chastises us for voicing our disagreement. It sounds like it is YOU who doesn't think this board is for learning.

Homer

10-13-2003, 02:44 AM

Preflop UTG comes in raising, two calls and another raise, called to me. I'm in the CO with JTo, I call. Button true to his declaration raises. It's back to me with a family pot, pot capped preflop, 20 BB in the pot.

You effectively called four bets cold with JTo. This is a horrible play.

Flop comes down 6,4,T with two clubs. I have top pair and an overcard to the board, my Ten is a club, life is good. SB bets out, called to me I raise, Button re-raises, folded to player on my right who calls, I call. Pot size beyond normal comprehension, no oint in counting any higher.

Turn is the King diamonds, I see player one flinch, he must have folded KK, that's a relief.

No one folded KK, I am certain. Perhaps you mean someone folded Kx?

Player on my right checks, I check because I am sure Button will bet and I want to raise as the Button and Player on my right are both visibly in pain.

What makes you think the button will bet, given that he is visibly in pain? Do you think he could have been BS'ing still on the flop?

With the pot being so large you should be doing anything you can to knock players out and improve your chances of winning the hand. You shouldn't be looking to trap the player to your right for two bets. Your hand is by no means a monster -- you must protect it.

Turn is 2 clubs. Board is now 64TK2 with three clubs. Player on my right checks, I bet, Button holds his hand so seats eight -> ten can see it as he mucks. Player on my right is in real pain, he starts to put out his call, pulls it in, repeats this four times. Finally he throws in his bet, and flips over JJ.

He had an incredibly easy call on the river. Also, he should have capped the flop and given that he didn't do that, he should have bet the river himself once the turn was checked around.

I muck my JT face down. Button groans, seat one swears and is reprimanded by the dealer, seat nine is also mumbling loudly, but not in English. Seat ten tells me Button threw away AA.

Is this a joke? No one is ever to call me weak-tight again.

-- Homer

Homer

10-13-2003, 02:57 AM

I guess I can add some ideas I think are interesting because a few of the responses so far are a little slim in any real content.

Actually, I think they were all very insightful.

Remember this was a family pot with ten players seeing the flop capped. There will be a lot of dead money in the pot by the river, the pot has 20 BB in it preflop.

Yeah, like your money.

1. When someone hasn't raised a single hand in three hours and announces to his friend that he is raising regardless of his hand, a raise from him does not mean much. It's the same as a straddle by utg.

Regardless, it still has an effect on how much money you must put into the pot preflop. You will effectively be calling (at least) two bets cold. This means you should fold some hands that you would have played for a single bet, since you can anticipate the raise behind you.

2. What could the six players who folded on the flop possibly be holding that they thought it was worth 2 BB just to see the flop?

Ummmm, lots of hands. Most hands miss on the flop. That's why good poker players do a lot of folding.

3. What about SB's initial flop bet? What could SB have been holding that was worth a bet, but folded to a raise he knew was coming.

This is a good point. Most players don't think about what other players have. They don't anticipate the actions of their opponents.

4. If you are playing a flush draw in a game like this, make sure it is the nut flush. That way you have something to fall back on if your flush doesn't happen.

Why is that? You played JTo for four bets and seem to be fine with it.

5. Playing 30 hours straight is just plain stupid.

Yeah I guess.

6. Don't count on another player to do what you want them to do.

He raised preflop, as promised. He said nothing about his postflop actions.

7. When a game is Loose and Aggressive, you need to determine before you throw the first bet(s) in how far you are willing to take your hand. If you don't think it's worth going to the river if you get a piece of the flop, fold before committing any your money. If you do committ play your hand, don't just call.

Yes, it is good to be tight and aggressive. Don't forget the tight...

9:1 is 9:1, whether it's one sb or four sb's. 9:1 on my money knowing there will be a lot of dead money in the pot makes a lot of hands playable that normally aren't worth even one bet.

This is absolutely incorrect! Your implied odds are shot to hell when you have to call multiple bets preflop.

And the most constructive thoughts you can come up with is how bad the hand was played? Do you actually start reading at the top of posts and think about what's being said or do you just skim to a part you can bad mouth?

So are we here to share ideas, and learn? Or are we just here to post hands that were played brilliantly in our eyes for all the forum readers to admire, and to badmouth other posts even when they aren't intended for us to start with?

I would be ashamed of myself if I posted some of the thoughts in a few of these replies. And they are complaining that RGP has gone down the toilet bowl?

This rambling of yours is a god-damned joke. You never should have paid four bets to see the flop to begin with, deal with the criticism. We are all here to help each other out -- check your ego at the door.

Honestly, I hope no one ever responds to any of your posts again.

-- A pissed off Homer

Ed Miller

10-13-2003, 03:20 AM

You don't call three cold with JTo, period. Please don't confuse the people who come to this forum to improve their game, Mike.

pudley4

10-13-2003, 02:10 PM

I started reading all the replies to your original post, seeing all the criticism coming your way, and thinking "The joke is going to be on these guys. Just wait, he'll put up a post soon stating that the JTo wasn't his hand, it was played by one of his opponents. He actually had the JJ and won the hand. He wants to point out:

1 - A hand like JTo plays poorly against many opponents for many bets.
2 - Use all the information you get (e.g. the Button is going to raise preflop, so you know it's going to cost at least 2 bets to see the flop. If you have a marginal hand, fold. If you have a great hand like AA, limp-reraise him)
3 - Folding overpairs is usually a bad idea.
4 - AA can win unimproved in a family pot."

I wish I was right.

pudley4

10-13-2003, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3. What about SB's initial flop bet? What could SB have been holding that was worth a bet, but folded to a raise he knew was coming.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't fold to a single raise, he folded to your raise and the button's 3-bet. The button also never said what his actions were going to be postflop, only preflop.

Mike

10-13-2003, 06:20 PM

majorkong is completely correct. If you don't know any better, JTo is not a hand for you to be playing. If you are new to the game wait until you have enough experience to decide when or if you should play it.

************************************************** **********

We are going nowhere fast here.

When I started reading this forum, there was an essay that caught my eye and I thought, wow, this should be a good place to hang out. I want to share part of that with you. I am sure you are all ready familiar with it, but it bears repeating.

"We want this web site to be lively. Let's debate issues and strategies. When our forum is up and running, take advantage of it. We will post all points of view. ....We sincerely hope that anything of interest and importance to poker will find its way onto our pages." I removed a part of the paragraph without (hopefully) changing the main context.

I would like to see the debate put back into debate on this forum. I like to take time with my posts and present them in a mature manner. Please remember what doesn't interest you, does not mean it is of no interest to the thousands of others that read posts here.

If you do not understand my thinking take a moment to ask why I think what I do. Maybe we both will learn something from the exchange?

Like you, I do not care to be personally attacked, and when I am I probably tend to lose some of my maturity, I don't know about you. Respect is a two way street, just because I may disagree with you or you with me, does not mean either of us is: stupid, a loser, going bankrupt, or anything else I have read lately. It means we disagree.

If you do not care for the content of my posts, you are under no obligation to read them. Sometimes I do not get to excited about them them myself, but I want to generate some discussion with them. The first post in this thread is a good example. I posted it because I felt there were many good learnings in it for newer players, things that more seasoned players rarely think about any more.

If you were a new player would the responses this post generated make you want to post yourself? I bet you would be reading all your books to make sure you towed the line before you typed anything. Is that good for the forum?

You are good people I think, I like you and most of what you have to say.

GuyOnTilt

10-13-2003, 06:26 PM

Okay. So how do you see this a capped family pot as a good time to play JTo?? What are the other hands would you call 3-cold with in this spot? I think we've found a MAJOR leak in your game.

CrackerZack

10-13-2003, 06:36 PM

WTF?

fold PF. Who folds KK on this board? C/R 2nd pair with 85 people in a huge pot. Is this real?

CrackerZack

10-13-2003, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are new to the game wait until you have enough experience to decide when or if you should play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if your conclusion is never, you're really not giving up much if anything. If you choose only in steals, all the better.

CrackerZack

10-13-2003, 06:42 PM

Big unsuited cards don't play well in multiway pots, you're cards aren't very big, and aren't suited, yet you like it in a 10-way capped PF. This is horrendous advise. Even Hellmuth wouldn't play this. If the other 9 players are asleep you'd have trouble pushing this into +EV.

You can play in my game any time you want. I'll give you the address. I'm not kidding. I have a home game in Queens, NY. You're invited.

slavic

10-13-2003, 06:54 PM

Mike-

I agree that you have no read on the button as he will raise. But that also elivates this game from LAG to just plain WILD. At that point JTo loses value because of its high starting cost regardless of the price you are getting on the call. You still have to make BB's up if you hit and it's going to be hard to do. Even suited connectors are hard to pull off in a capped pot.

Louie Landale

10-13-2003, 07:08 PM

This is a terrible post for new players.

You are OUT OF YOUR MIND playing JT trash in a multi-capped flop: most are getting good odds from YOU. There may be "lots of dead money" in the pot by the show-down, but must of the time its going to be YOUR dead money.

Even if you KNEW everyone would cap and call PF blind, JT is still a dog since your implied odds, such as they may have been, are completely out the window.

How you managed to get, 3 players to lay down better hands is beyond belief. I mean that. Beyond belief.

- Louie

Uppercut

10-13-2003, 07:19 PM

A couple of thoughts...

1. Nobody, and I mean nobody, folds KK to that flop.

2. Nobody folds AA in this hand period, especially with the size of the pot.

3. JTo is a horrible hand to play for 4 bets pre-flop.

4. If someone at the table tells you they folded AA, you can be sure that they didn't.

Some_Guy

10-13-2003, 08:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Losing at the end to JJ, hmm...sounds to me like I lost with second best hand, not a bad end starting with ten players on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I'm a new player and I was pretty amazed that anyone would play JTo that way PF. I thought maybe that was the whole purpose of the post, why JTo sucks.

Also, I may be new, but I am never happy about having the second best hand, especially at showdown.

Michael Davis

10-13-2003, 08:23 PM

Mike,

I think some posts could be written with more tact, but the point is here, no amount of thinking can be done to rationalize the catastrophic mistakes that were made in this hand. This point has been beaten into the ground.

A post explaining to new players why they should not play JTo here would be beneficial.

I don't think too many are trying to be excessively harsh, but there are flaws so egregious here that the old pro's hair is immediately raises and their reaction a tad more emotional than usual.

-Mike

Homer

10-13-2003, 08:41 PM

Like you, I do not care to be personally attacked, and when I am I probably tend to lose some of my maturity, I don't know about you. Respect is a two way street, just because I may disagree with you or you with me, does not mean either of us is: stupid, a loser, going bankrupt, or anything else I have read lately. It means we disagree.

Who personally attacked you?! Posters provided well-thought out responses that you disagreed with, and you felt the need to respond with the following:

And the most constructive thoughts you can come up with is how bad the hand was played? Do you actually start reading at the top of posts and think about what's being said or do you just skim to a part you can bad mouth?

So are we here to share ideas, and learn? Or are we just here to post hands that were played brilliantly in our eyes for all the forum readers to admire, and to badmouth other posts even when they aren't intended for us to start with?

I would be ashamed of myself if I posted some of the thoughts in a few of these replies. And they are complaining that RGP has gone down the toilet bowl?

If there's anyone here who doesn't understand that respect is a two-way street, it is you.

-- Homer

Redhotman

10-13-2003, 11:14 PM

Never heard of an extreamily wild game where people lay down KK and AA to rag flops. Please...

Mike

10-14-2003, 12:39 AM

Like I said, I can only guess about KK, but seat seven flashed his hand to seats 8 -> 10 as he mucked, and seat ten told me seat seven threw away AA. Seats eight and nine agreed. So what do they or myself gain by lying about it?

Mike

10-14-2003, 12:48 AM

Michael,

That is exactly why I chose to post this hand. because it is filled with errors. I was hoping others would point most of them out. Everyone is so fixated by JTo they can't get to the rest of the post.

I would be really happy if you would take the time to explain why JTo is a terrible hand in this situation or in general.

A newer player learns little by just reading how bad a hand JTo is as they have little to base it on.

Perhaps you could go into a little detail about the other mistakes made in the hand by other players too while you are typing? I listed some, but not in much detail.

That would be a great thing for the forum.

Ulysses

10-14-2003, 03:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There will be a lot of dead money in the pot by the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Irony.

[ QUOTE ]
1. When someone hasn't raised a single hand in three hours and announces to his friend that he is raising regardless of his hand, a raise from him does not mean much.

[/ QUOTE ]

It mean it will cost at least one extra SB to see the flop, and probably two more if there's another raiser in the hand.

[ QUOTE ]

2. What could the six players who folded on the flop possibly be holding that they thought it was worth 2 BB just to see the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably a number of hands that fare better in big multiway pots than JTo. What kind of set of hands could they be holding that JTo fares well against?

[ QUOTE ]
3. What about SB's initial flop bet? What could SB have been holding that was worth a bet, but folded to a raise he knew was coming.

[/ QUOTE ]
There was a bet, a call, a raise, and a re-raise. Perhaps he was smart and folded a hand like JTo.

[ QUOTE ]
3. If you come into hand like this with AA, and you play it to the river, with a pot size of over 23 BB you don't fold to a final river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes! That is actually correct!!!

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't think it's worth going to the river if you get a piece of the flop, fold before committing any your money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Deciding before the flop that you're going to the river w/ any piece is a terrible strategy.

[ QUOTE ]
I feel very comfortable playing JTo with nine other players in the hand with me, if you don't, oh well - play little, win little, be happy.

[/ QUOTE ]
I play a relatively large number of hands and win a lot of money at poker, yet I can't remember the last time (if ever) I found myself calling 4 bet w/ JTo.

[ QUOTE ]
9:1 is 9:1, whether it's one sb or four sb's. 9:1 on my money knowing there will be a lot of dead money in the pot makes a lot of hands playable that normally aren't worth even one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, any two can win. Any two won't be profitable, though. I'll let others elaborate.

[ QUOTE ]
Losing at the end to JJ, hmm...sounds to me like I lost with second best hand, not a bad end starting with ten players on the flop. One more little waver by the player on my right, and the pot would have been mine without even showing my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, almost...

[ QUOTE ]
I would play it almost the same way with the same flop and similar players any time.

[/ QUOTE ]
And if so, you'll lose as much money as you did in this hand, except sometimes you'll get the turn checkraise in and lose a little more.

[ QUOTE ]
I counted on what the players in the hand were probably holding and what they weren't.

[/ QUOTE ]
You did? What possible holdings could you like taking JTo up against? You considered that they had overpairs and still played like that? If so, that's even more ridiculous.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't give credit for any hand except mine benifiting from a T64 flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's some outstanding handreading there.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and did I mention it was Loose Aggressive Game with a family pot of ten players? Let's see, I did mention there were lots of lessons for newer player didn't I? Let me check, oh yes, I did.

[/ QUOTE ]
You were correct about that. This is pretty much a textbook example of why JTo sucks in a big multi-way raised pot.

[ QUOTE ]
And the most constructive thoughts you can come up with is how bad the hand was played? Do you actually start reading at the top of posts and think about what's being said or do you just skim to a part you can bad mouth?

[/ QUOTE ]
New players might actually think you are an experienced player who understands the fundamentals of the game. Yes, it's important to make sure they realize much of what you posted is completely incorrect. And I'm pretty sure most responders read your entire posts. It's just that it was pretty tough to touch on everything that was wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
Or are we just here to post hands that were played brilliantly in our eyes for all the forum readers to admire,

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the majority of posts here involve hands where people question how they played hands. There's not much to be gained from analyzing straightforward well-played hands.

[ QUOTE ]
I would be ashamed of myself if I posted some of the thoughts in a few of these replies.

[/ QUOTE ]
Like what?

Ulysses

10-14-2003, 03:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
IMO this makes JTo a calling hand in the cutoff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ted Danson think Whoopi Goldberg is really hot. Everyone has opinions.

[ QUOTE ]
One player was unhappy when the King of diamonds showed up on the turn. I can't imagine why unless he threw away KK.

[/ QUOTE ]
Boy, you don't have much of an imagination.

[ QUOTE ]

I had top pair, top pair is top pair until you're told otherwise. No one told me otherwise. JJ simply called all the way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you forget the part where you got three-bet on the flop?

Ulysses

10-14-2003, 03:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you have a house because you'll need a place to sleep when you're broke.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's safe to say that this guy isn't playing poker for a living.

Louie Landale

10-14-2003, 01:40 PM

In retrospect, this IS a good hand for beginners to follow. Lessons are [] don't play crap in capped pots, and [] Bluffing out all but ONE better hand is a LOT easier than bluffing out ALL the better hands, and [] Poker players rarely tell the truth when telling their stories.

- Louie

Mike

10-14-2003, 02:21 PM

Louie,

FWIW - I do not remember the last time I played JTo either except in the big blind with no raise.

I don't imagine you remember, but you used to post quite a bit when you started playing $10-20. I remember one series of posts in particular where you were usually posting how you always seemed out be starting the session stuck. One post I remember in particular you said you were down $1300 and went on to tell the struggle you had to get back to even. This situation was similar to yours at that time for most of the players in that I posted that started all this. I learned a lot from your posts back then, I wish you would post more.

If you take a table of low limit players who have been playing way over their comfort limit for over an hour, and they don't have your fortitude when it comes to poker they start to get scared.

They start to realize that those big pots are illusions, you can win a huge pot, but you pay huge prices to be in it if you lose. They start to think about the monster under the bed. The hand that's going to send them home. They still want to play, they don't want to go home yet. I don't think it is an arguable point the average recreational player wants to make his $100.00 last as long as he/she can. They know they aren't going to win except occasionally. Unlike you back then, they know they aren't going to pull their way up to even or better. So they get scared and start tightening up. Make that last $30.00 last a few hands longer.

When the game has been wild over an hour. A guy who hasn't raised a hand in all the time I have been there says he is raising no matter what. At that time anybody could have used him to create the monster under the bed. All it takes is nerve, raising and some chips.

I find it hard to believe a few of the players didn't know there was no way they were behind in the hand. They were getting scared and that made them tight -scared money. Feed their fear, raise again, one big bet closer to them going home. I forced them to make decisions based on their stacks, not their common sense or poker knowledge. That's why I decided to play JTo at that time. I could have held 72, it wouldn't have made any difference. I was either correct in my thinking or I wasn't. I certainly didn't expect JJ to hang around and call on the river, so I guess I was wrong. Big deal, one hand, I learned more for the next time this situation happens.

As for the rest of the players, thier play was horrible! I can't believe AA folded either, that's insane, he should have been pounding away!

Just like you in your old post, I had a plan going into the hand. I knew what I wanted to do, which was more than the other nine players had. So I was wrong, it's not the end of the world.

In case anyone thinks otherwise, I don't believe this is something that could be attempted in AC, LV, CA, and probably not online although I have never played a money game online. In a small cardroom where the players sitting at the table are all the players you are going to see for the night, things are different. The monster under the bed is only a hand away.

gonores

10-14-2003, 02:54 PM

OK, you're saying that your plan, as you sent 3sb into the pot with your JTo (effectively, 4sb), is to make 7+ fold, many with better hands, in a huge pot by the river if you catch any piece of the board?

[ QUOTE ]
They were getting scared and that made them tight -scared money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, capped family pots is an entirely common by-product of tight, scared play.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it is an arguable point the average recreational player wants to make his $100.00 last as long as he/she can.

[/ QUOTE ]

The average recreational player is in it for the thrill of winning. If recreational players wanted to hang on to their money, they would be rocks. You say "They know they aren't going to win except occasionally." The whole reason a rec player plays is because he thinks he's going to get lucky. Can't get lucky when you aren't holding any cards. Recreational players can't see the monsters under the bed because they can't think past their own cards.

[ QUOTE ]
If you take a table of low limit players who have been playing way over their comfort limit for over an hour,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a 4/8 game, right? This is over their comfort level? You yourself described the game as LAG...uncomfortable people aren't LAGs.

[ QUOTE ]
In case anyone thinks otherwise, I don't believe this is something that could be attempted in AC, LV, CA, and probably not online although I have never played a money game online. In a small cardroom where the players sitting at the table are all the players you are going to see for the night, things are different. The monster under the bed is only a hand away.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is sorta poetic...but I fail to see the logic behind it.

I find it entertaining to see that you stand firm behind your claim that the button had aces.

*Please note I have not attacked you personally in this entire thread. I have only pointed out what I perceive to be flaws in your logic.

lil'

10-14-2003, 03:25 PM

So I was wrong, it's not the end of the world.
Big deal, one hand, I learned more for the next time this situation happens.
You cost yourself 4 1/2 BB on one hand. That's between 2-3 hours profit for some players. The worst part is it was so easily avoidable.

You are minimizing here, which is a classic defense mechanism.

As for the rest of the players, thier play was horrible! I can't believe AA folded either, that's insane, he should have been pounding away!
If you take a table of low limit players who have been playing way over their comfort limit for over an hour, and they don't have your fortitude when it comes to poker they start to get scared.
Now you are shifting the focus away from yourself and on to the other players. Another defense mechanism.

I look forward to more posts from you in the future, but I fear you won't learn anything here if you can't look at yourself and see what you did wrong. Right now it doesn't look like you're able to see what is so clear to everyone else because you're on the defensive.

Ulysses

10-14-2003, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I could have held 72, it wouldn't have made any difference. I was either correct in my thinking or I wasn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, in summary, your plan is to muscle your way through nine loose-aggressive players w/ a huge pot in a low-limit game. That's a bad plan. Hopefully you were able to realize that from this hand.

GuyOnTilt

10-14-2003, 05:32 PM

So your plan for this hand was to go for a pure bluff in a capped family pot against opponents that you labeled as LAG???!!! Give me a break.

Make up your mind. First you defended yourself saying that JTo was fine to play in a capped family pot as long as you're an experienced player. Then you defended yourself on your post-flop play saying that "top pair is top pair until somebody tells me otherwise" even though you were 3-bet on the flop, not to mention the fact that it was raised and reraised before it got to you preflop, meaning that high pocket pairs are a very likely. And now you're trying to salvage your reputation by saying you almost pulled off the perfect bluff against a table that was ripe to be bluffed????

When are you going to just admit that your play on this hand was atrocious?

Ulysses

10-14-2003, 05:56 PM

I'll save some time and provide the next logical response:

"It was an advertising play."

CORed

10-14-2003, 06:47 PM

Mike, I am not a real frequent poster here, but I think you are taking some of the comments way too personally. You may not be stupid, but you played the hand you posted at the start of this thread stupidly, particularly calling 3 cold with J10o, with a cap expected behind you preflop. You may not be a loser, or going bankrupt but I can guarantee that if you continue to make plays like calling 3 cold with J10o, your will certainly lose money at poker, and if you play long enough or at high enough stakes, you will go bankrupt. You say this forum should be a place for learning, but you seem unwilling to learn anything about how you played the hand. I haven't seen one post here expressing the opinion that you played the hand in question well. That should tell you something.

You directed your post at new players, and proceeded to give them very bad advice. I think the posters in this forum should challenge you in strong terms. To fail to do so would be a disservice to new players. If you want to continue to believe that J10o is a good hand to play in a multiway capped pot, I hope you will start playing online, at Party. I'd love to have you at my table(s). I quarantee yo I wouldn't have folded AA or KK in the hand you posted. There's a good chance I would have bet the turn and 3-bet your check-raise.

CORed

10-14-2003, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Losing at the end to JJ, hmm...sounds to me like I lost with second best hand, not a bad end starting with ten players on the flop. One more little waver by the player on my right, and the pot would have been mine without even showing my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you figure coming in second is not a bad ending? In poker, coming in second means you get to give lots of money to the person in 1st. Perhaps you are playing in some kind of wierd poker game where there is a 2nd prize. Besides, if you were told the truth about the fools who folded AA and KK (highly unlikely IMO), you were in 4th on the flop.

CORed

10-14-2003, 07:24 PM

J10o is a very marginal hand. The only place I will play it is in the big blind with no raise, or lots of players and 1 raise (marginal), in a 1/2 small bet or larger small blind with no raise, or on the button, with lots of players in (marginal). It would not be unreasonable to fold it anywhere but an unraised big blind.

J 10 is the best hand for making straights. It can make four straights and every straight it makes using 3 board cards is a nut straight. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen often enough to make the hand profitable, unless you see the flop very cheaply, and drag big pots. J10o can also flop top pair, but it makes weak top pairs that are likely to come in second, either to a better kicker, or to overcards on the turn or river. Therefore, the top pair hands it makes will usually win small pots, except in very loose games, or lose big, if you don't know when to give up on them. Of course, as with any hand, J10 can win on miracle flops like 2 pair, trips and full house. Of course, these are too rare to add much value to the hand. Because J10o doesn't flop a playable hand too often, you need to see the flop cheaply to play it at all. Unfortunately, the multiway hands that you need to make the straight profitable also reduce the value of the top pair hands. Note that J10 suited is a much better hand, because of the flush potential. However, it still needs high implied odds to make money and usually shouldn't be played for multiple bets preflop.

Mike

10-14-2003, 07:24 PM

Thank you for your civil post. Now we are having a discussion, or at least I am trying to. Let me go through point by point and see if I can help you understand what I think.

I am guessing you don't play in a small cardroom. Perhaps not even B & M?. If you did you would see men/women who show up and play with scared money. They hid so many dollars away from their wife, and here they are at the table. It could be BJ, roulette, craps, or Slots for that matter. What they have in common is playing on money that they really could put to better use somewhere else. Then there are the gambling addicts. No one in a casino ever calls them that, but that's what they are. They can't stay away. Every penny they can squeeze out of their life goes to gambling. That's not all players of course, but enough to keep the game going week to week. They are our clients if you will.

Tables go on tilt and they get crazy in B&M, no surprise for anyone who plays in one.

"OK, you're saying...piece of the board?"

I thought I was posting a hand with a multitude of errors that could be picked apart and dissected, with some good learnings for newer players. Yes running down the table was my plan, but I didn't see how it added any value to my intial post, so I left it out. My reasons had little to do with the hand itself. I thought having top two cards on a straight board would be very nice, but that was an okay flop for those cards if I couldn't have what I wanted.

"Yeah, capped family pots is an entirely common by-product of tight, scared play."

You are completely correct, but in this situation after these folks with their small buyin and no reserve get over the excitement of monster pots, they start to think about what they are doing. They get nervous. They came to play a quiet little game of $4-8 and here they are in a game thats getting capped and has seven or more players going to the flop and four or more at the river. They realize what they are doing and they know they don't want to lose, because they would have to go home. They just don't have the money to play that way. But greed has them - Just one pot is the theme for them. In this session the wildness went on for almost an hour and one-half. That's a very long time for this type of table in a small B&M. It couldn't last much longer. So you are right, scared money doesn't play that way, that's why the game goes back to normal after a short period of being overly loose.

Sometimes it's the thrill of winning that creates wild games. Someone gets a "bad beat" and goes on tilt. That makes someone else tilt, because they got burned too. I am sure you know the reasons as well as I do. Suddenly the whole table seems to have gone crazy.

I described the game as LAG, not the players. Loose with a lot of raising is LAG, or close enough for the general idea of the game texture.

As for the monster under the bed. When players are put in tough positions with small stacks they tend to see monsters.
Haven't you ever heard something along the lines of,"I don't believe he has it it, but..."? It's the same principal or is that principle?

I don't think am standing firm on anything except my play. If you think he didn't muck aces, and I was told he did, what does it matter really?

As for the lack of logic, you are correct, there isn't any. Peoples emotions do not run on logic. If I were playing that hand to their logic, that hand would have been just another fold and forget.

If you want logic from my game, I am sorry. For me poker is multifaceted, full of good play mixed with bluffs, out right lies, and taking advantage of peoples emotions when I can.

If I played online, I think I would be restricted to logic and good play. Many other parts of the game would appear to be missing to me, because I can't see my opposition. I may be completely out in left field, but that is my perception of online play. IMO if you play online, you have to be stronger than a B&M player at the same level, you are playing the world and you can't see them.

lil'

10-14-2003, 08:12 PM

Another classic defense mechanism - intellectualizing. Talking away your problems and hiding behind words.

Ulysses

10-14-2003, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you are playing in some kind of wierd poker game where there is a 2nd prize.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ulysses

10-14-2003, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
They are our clients if you will.

[/ QUOTE ]
Irony.

[ QUOTE ]
In this session the wildness went on for almost an hour and one-half. That's a very long time for this type of table in a small B&M. It couldn't last much longer. So you are right, scared money doesn't play that way, that's why the game goes back to normal after a short period of being overly loose.

[/ QUOTE ]
You had a bunch of scared money playing at the table and you were seeing stuff like capped family pots for an hour and a half? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

[ QUOTE ]
I described the game as LAG, not the players. Loose with a lot of raising is LAG, or close enough for the general idea of the game texture.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to imagine a LAG table full of weak-tight rocks. Hmmmm.....

[ QUOTE ]
It's the same principal or is that principle?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's principle.

[ QUOTE ]
If you think he didn't muck aces, and I was told he did, what does it matter really?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if one of your points is illustrating to newer players that strong, aggressive play in a situation like this can get someone to muck Aces, it's worth pointing out that it's highly unlikely that he actually did muck Aces.

[ QUOTE ]
If you want logic from my game, I am sorry. For me poker is multifaceted, full of good play mixed with bluffs, out right lies, and taking advantage of peoples emotions when I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

The other day, I 3-bet and 5-bet a 6-way pot in a 15-30 game. I knew that one player had me beat and the other 4 were drawing. I also knew that I was not getting correct pot odds to value raise, but what I was giving up in odds was more than made up for by the fact that I was burning up a lot of chips from a couple of short stacks I didn't like who were most likely drawing dead. I ended up losing the pot, but it was a hell of a lot of fun. But I'd never post that hand here and try to defend my play, which is what you appear to be doing. You decided to gamble w/ JTo in a bad spot. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just an unprofitable thing to do. That's all people are saying. There's nothing wrong w/ playing table games in a casino. I do it all the time. Playing JTo the way you did, that's pretty much what you were doing as well.

oneeye13

10-14-2003, 09:21 PM

"I may be completely out in left field" - pretty much the only part of your analysis i agree with. you expect us to believe that 2 people with pocket pairs bigger than the board folded on the flop to a monster pot? you are surprised that JJ called you down? i don't see how you expect us to buy that you break even, let alone beat the rake at an actual casino.

oneeye13

10-14-2003, 09:29 PM

"One player was unhappy when the King of diamonds showed up on the turn. I can't imagine why unless he threw away KK. "

so I guess we're putting AK completely out of the realm of possibility

Mike

10-14-2003, 10:35 PM

Absolutely, I agree with what you say 100%. Under normal conditions I do not play JTo.

Fwiw, I also do not care for KJ, QT, J9, or T9 offsuit unless I play it free in the Big Blind. I also find it hard to get excited about suited connectors between Q and nine. Some people do very well with them, I am not one of them, so I save myself some bets by not even starting with them unless its in the blinds, and then usually only the big blind.

Mike

10-14-2003, 11:21 PM

No offense intended here, but I do not expect anything of you. Nor do I expect you to think anything about whether I really may win or not when I play, or even going further, if this hand was real or not.

If I really wanted to post a hand about me or wanted you to believe anything about me, why would I post a hand one such as this one?

What I truly, and I want to emphasize the word 'truly', thought it would do was stimulate some good discussion about all the aspects of the hand and the players that started it. I really missed there too. I guess it's not my week in the correct ideas department.

Absolutely no one, played the hand well including myself. I really missed in my assessment of what the player on my right would do. As I said his play was erratic, I expected him to fold to other peoples raising and betting. If I wasn't sure I could run over the table on this hand, I wouldn't have been in the hand to start with. So that was my bad.

Where I live, players make moves all the time. There is a small base of regular $4-8 players, after a year or so, you pretty much know how everyone else plays. If you make it through the first year you are either a rock, you've learned enough to survive, or you are one of the unfortunates who can't stay away.

There is usually only one table, so you can't just click a button and change games, or go ask for a table change. You sit down or go home and watch tv. When you sit, you get what you get, good or bad.

So how do you get an edge in a game like this? ABC poker doesn't cut it, you won't get any action. Most of the skilled players will play two games, theirs and yours. You will only see their best hands when they are playing your game if you only play ABC poker.

Playing badly doesn't cut it either because you will get eaten for lunch and be broke an hour later. That much is obvious.

For me taking advantage of situations at the table makes a difference. Believe what you will.

If you want integrity from me, I don't know what to tell you. If you choose not to believe what I have said in all my posts, that's okay. If you look at that first post, and this one and think it's all a bunch of bologny, I have no opinion.

I do know that no matter where you or anyone reading this plays, at least one player will put a move or two on you in your next game. If he/she is good at it, you will not even know it happened unless you are good too.

ElSapo

10-14-2003, 11:42 PM

Where I live, players make moves all the time. There is a small base of regular $4-8 players, after a year or so, you pretty much know how everyone else plays.

Out of curiosity, where is this game? What room?

chesspain

10-15-2003, 12:20 AM

This thread just won't go away. I haven't seen a dead horse get worked over like this since the "Godfather."

oneeye13

10-15-2003, 01:06 AM

"if he was at all rational", he would have been the only one at the table, other than whoever had JJ

oneeye13

10-15-2003, 01:24 AM

Look, I'll be honest. I'm sure a few people on this board will agree with my opinion on this one.

I think this hand is fictional. It's my belief that you made it up to try to drive home some point that you are particularly impressed with yourself for coming up with. I find the tone of the initial post, in particular the title, condescending.

I consider myself a "newer" player at poker, and I think most of us should, but I don't think anyone can gain any insight into how poker is played from an entirely fictional account of events where the characters you have created don't act much like actual card players. Furthermore, I think that your analysis is faulty (particularly where you put one player on KK), and that you are doing a disservice to the "newer" players through your efforts to show us all how clever you are.

While I agree that it isn't entirely desireable to end up playing a typical "rock" game, that doesn't mean you can blindly go ahead trying to trick people with almost complete disregard for the cards and actions of others.

oneeye13

10-15-2003, 01:32 AM

also, has anyone touched on the fact that he takes care to point out he has a T-high 3-flush?

Joe Tall

10-15-2003, 07:55 AM

ResidentParanoid

10-15-2003, 11:14 AM

The outrage over the wacky play by our hero in this hand is why this board is so useful.

The message to newer players is simple:

1. Don't convince yourself to call 3 cold pre-flop. Do this only with the best few possible hands.

2. Once you make bad decisions pre-flop, you will put yourself in a position to make even more mistakes after the flop.

Louie Landale

10-15-2003, 01:25 PM

So Hero seems to be saying that he (correctly or incorrectly) deduced that many of the LAG villian-suckers were playing with "scared" money, that suddenly they were likely, VERY likely, to make poor investments early yet make rediculous and incorrect folds later.

So lets say that's true, Hero correctly deduced it, and Hero wants to take advantage of it before the "mood" passes.

Try this. Play reasonably before the flop and when you flop a draw, figure to play tricky-and-aggresive with it all the way through. You get your +EV with so many flop callers AND get to bluff at +EV later.

THAT's how you take advantage of this "situation".

- Louie

CrackerZack

10-15-2003, 01:30 PM

This was superbowl advertising prices.

ResidentParanoid

10-15-2003, 04:20 PM

Yes!

slavic

10-15-2003, 04:28 PM

Mike

10-15-2003, 06:56 PM

Sshhhhh, don't let that get out, or top pair on the flop either. We can't talk about that. lol

Mike

10-15-2003, 07:05 PM

"How do you figure coming in second is not a bad ending?" Bluffing is a part of poker for experienced players. This is an extreme case, and I highly recommend you do not try anything like this.

I think it was said I lost 4.5 BB in the hand. There were 20 BB preflop! How many times can I be wrong and still make money on the hand? I can lose 4 times and win 1 and I'm ahead.

Mike

10-15-2003, 07:17 PM

I think you should think about this some more. The flop contained 4,6,T with two clubs, and ten players active in the hand. If on average 1 or 2 of those players has a pair preflop, the others hold a pretty random selection of cards.

Someone must have had one club perhaps two in their hand. Someone had a piece of the 64 or T6 for a straight draw of some type. In another hand with different players someone might have held TT, 66, 44 and flopped a set although they should let you know on the flop. An overpair is also a possibility when you hold JJ in a multiway pot.

You wouldn't be to wrong to fold JJ in a multiway pot. You will occasionally win, but you are not much better off than I was with JTo when it comes to winning. You can't push your JJ, it slows you down and lets the other players in to make their draws or otherwise imporove their hands.

Of course this is only my opinion and others will have different views.

Mike

10-15-2003, 07:21 PM

Nope, there was no "hero" in this hand, is that so difficult a concept?

There were many if not all the players who all played their hands wrong.

Mike

10-15-2003, 07:32 PM

"Try this. Play reasonably before the flop and when you flop a draw, figure to play tricky-and-aggresive with it all the way through. You get your +EV with so many flop callers AND get to bluff at +EV later.

THAT's how you take advantage of this "situation"."

This is $4-8, not $20-40 at your table. I am not playing against tough seasoned players. Ram and Jam at low limit gets much more respect than any amount of tricky play. Tricky play probably won't even get noticed to start with.

banditbdl

10-15-2003, 07:54 PM

You are correct in thinking you *might* only need like 5:1 odds to win money in the long haul (this assumes it will only cost 4.5 BB on average to get to the river). The problem is your odds of winning a 9-way capped flop with JTo are I'm guessing in the range of 10-15:1 at best. They may be lower than 20:1.

oneeye13

10-15-2003, 08:01 PM

you can't push JJ, but you can push a T w/ J kicker? i don't follow this.

banditbdl

10-15-2003, 08:23 PM

You would in fact be terribly, horribly wrong to fold an overpair like JJ, when a ten high flop is raised by a loose aggressive player like yourself who is raising the flop after calling 3 cold preflop. This hand is perfect evidence of way folding JJ here is an absolutely horrendous play as this player won himself I nice hefty pot by calling it down.

P.S. I actually am somewhat inclined to believe the button may have actually folded. He was trying too hard to make a "great" play and wanted to impress his buddies sitting next to him by showing them what a strong hand he was folding. As for the seat one player, KK is highly unlikely, he likely had Kx. If two players folded KK and AA in a nine-way cap-flop it would have to be the absolute most dead money table ever known to man.

Mike

10-16-2003, 12:06 AM

Warning: DO NOT TRY THIS IN YOUR GAME - this may only work for illogical players.

First, you have to think about what you want to do.

Put me in a game with say, Ulysses, Vehn, Majorkong, and a few more like them and it's pretty much abc poker for everyone unless the stakes are such that losing a hand is painful. They are tough players and they won't be fooled or pushed around. Plus they have very deep pockets. Sure, I will sneak some bets off of them from pure position play, but they will do the same to me, so there is no edge there. It would be primarily a house wins the most chips game. Not a lot of sense playing that game. Trying to make something happen would be a very bad idea financially.

Put me in a game with the right players, and there are now many more opportunities for some manipulative play.

Here is what you do:

1. About an hour before you are going to play take some vitamin B complex pills with a glass of milk. No caffeine!

2. After playing a bit, and you know your players and you have worked up the nerve, go to the bathroom and puke. You want to get your puking done in the bathroom because if you do it at the table, it ruins the game. Going to the bathroom when you are done puking doesn't hurt either.

2. Come back to the table, strap on your seatbelt, get a glass of water, and wait for the right hand with all your players doing the right things, off you go.

3. If you planned well, and did everything right, the dealer will push you a pot you know you don't deserve. The urge to laugh out loud and tell them what you just did will be very strong. Don't do it.

You may shake a little, but they will think it is a tell from the win you just made.

4. When they ask what you had, look at them and say: "nothing" with a straight face of course. When they ask, "Did you have XX?", say yes. Never show your cards.

Remember, if you choose wrong, you will look really stupid, and you will have a lot less money than you did before. Don't blame me if you try it and bomb. You have been warned.