Layed down trip K's - thoughts?

[John J]

In late position I'm dealt K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. One person limps in front of me, I call, a player behind me limps and the small blind calls.

Four handed flop, it comes down 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. First player bets, I raise to get a free card, both players behind me fold and the original bettor calls.

Turn is K /images/graemlins/heart.gif. He bets into me, which I didn't expect. If he had the flush, wouldn't he check it and let me bet for him? I call.

Next card is 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. He bets, I fold.

Thoughts?

[chesspain]

Dude,

You played this hand like it was in some sort of bizarro land, where everything is backwards.

1. Limping with K8s is terrible in late position after only one other person had limped. Folding would be my plan, since you won't necessarily have enough other limpers to have the odds to call with what is essentially a flush drawing hand, and you can't be sure the pot won't get raised behind you. You doing the raising here would be my [distant] second choice, in order to try to get the button and the blinds to fold, where at least you can attempt to isolate the early position limper, who hopefully isn't holding an ace or a better king.

2. Then, when the flop shows only red cards, you raise "to get a free card." What card are you trying to prepurchase, an eight? If your opponent already has a better king, you're pretty well screwed.

3. When the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif comes on the turn, you act surprised when he bets into you, even though this is totally consistent with either someone on a flush draw or someone who already paired a king. Or are you surprised he bet even after your fear-inspiring raise on the flop?

4. Then, after calling on the turn, you fold to one more bet when the ten hits the board on the river, making the four flush. You still have no clue what he might be holding, since you failed to raise the turn when you made trips. He could easily have been betting his own king, or even a pocket pair, in case he thought you were the one on the draw. While you may well be beat here, calling him down on the river for one more bet would seem to have made more sense, since you were now headsup with trips, with at least a mediocre kicker.

I hate to have been so harsh, but hands like this give me bad dreams.

[Brian33]

[ QUOTE ]

4. Then, after calling on the turn, you fold to one more bet when the ten hits the board on the river, making the four flush. You still have no clue what he might be holding, since you failed to raise the turn when you made trips.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi, I'm just learning the intricacies of the game a bit, so forgive me if this is an obvious question. In the case above, how would he have known what the guy had if he raised the bet on the turn? Would the guy call with Kings AND the flush draw? Or would he re-raise with one or not the other?

[chesspain]

You are right that raising the turn might not have led to any more information. I'm not sure I even would advocate raising the turn, despite my inference in that sentence. But since he has no way to know where he stands, there would seem to be even more of a case for calling his opponent down, which is what I thought he was doing when he called on the turn.

[brian0729]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, I'm just learning the intricacies of the game a bit, so forgive me if this is an obvious question. In the case above, how would he have known what the guy had if he raised the bet on the turn? Would the guy call with Kings AND the flush draw? Or would he re-raise with one or not the other?

[/ QUOTE ]

If our hero would have raised the turn, he could have layed his hand down to a reraise, probably knowing the villian had a flush or a K with a better kicker and he would have had a better read for the river if the villian had only called.

[brian0729]

Muck this with only one limper to you. Chess is correct you need three to four limpers to play this. If you dont hit your two pair or flush draw, you have to be able to let this go when you run into resistance due to the kicker problems.

[John J]

Okay, let me explain my thought process during this hand.
I have recently purchased Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit Hold'em" book, and have been following his preflop betting guidelines to a T. In the book it says that if you are in middle position with three or fewer limpers in front, call KTs-K8s.

On the flop, Lee Jones says that when you flop top pair with a weak kicker, you may want to raise after the first bettor bets out, causing everyone else to fold and the first bettor (usually) will check to you on the turn. When he bet, I wasn't sure what kind of hand to put him on. Now that I am thinking about it, a raise on the turn would probably be the better move.

On the river, I thought there was no way I could win this hand without a /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I almost wish I had called just to see what he had.. but wanted to make the "intelligent" decision.

Should I follow Lee's guidelines more loosely? Or am I somehow misinterpreting?

[Bob T.]

Should I follow Lee's guidelines more loosely? Or am I somehow misinterpreting?

The most frequent criticism of Lee Jones, is that his starting requirements are too loose. The good thing about them, is that they are much tighter than most players play, so, most players improve their preflop play by following these guidelines. If you play according to his guidelines, you might see 30+% of the flops, which might be okay in a B@M low limit environment, but probably isn't in an online environment where play is typically tighter, and more aggressive.

If I was to play this hand in this position, and if the limper played weak tight on the flop, I very likely would play it, I would play for a raise, try and isolate him, and win on the flop.

Once I got in to the turn, I would call on the river for the size of the pot. I might call too often, but I don't lose much sleep, and I also don't have to make any 'should I have folded this?' posts.

[John J]

So you would raise on the flop, and then call or raise on the turn?

I also felt some of Lee's starting cards are a bit loose, such as raising in mid position with ATo. How should I modify these? Change the number of limpers required or just drop things like K8s all together?

Very true about the "should I have folded this" posts /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Thanks for the help everyone, I'm trying hard to improve my game so this advice is great.

[sucka]

As someone else mentioned - K8s is essentially a drawing hand. When you enter a in LP with only one limper you are not likely to end up with enough money in the pot to chase a flush draw should you even hit one. If you flop a King and see some action you may very well have kicker problems and certainly flopping a pair of 8's isn't exactly what you've got your fingers crossed for either.

I raise to get a free card

Why do you want a free card here? You aren't drawing - you think you have the best hand and raising here allows you to get more $$ in the pot with what is likely the best hand. You indicate that the SB bets out on the flop. Did the BB and EP limper call as well? If so, raising here is probably a bad idea as you aren't going to get anyone to fold and you are going to build a bigger pot for the flush draw(s), which is just going to keep them interested. FWIW, many players will bet flush draws or top pair / weak kicker from the blinds in an unraised pot to see how the action develops. Perhaps this player has a weak King as well and decided to bet out and see what happened.

There's a good chance you are beat on the river with 4 hearts out and I think this is probably a good fold.

For starters though, I'd toss this cheese pre-flop every time and if for some reason I did get spunky and play it I'd only raise the flop if I could clear the field.

This situation is exactly why these types of hands are often discussed - they are difficult to play when a scenario develops that's not at all what you had in mind when you called with it pre-flop.

[chesspain]

John,

Lee Jones's book is an excellent, starting book for a holdem player. In fact, my profits increased exponentially after I read and reread his book (along with S&M and the posts here).

A couple of points to remember:

1. Many posters here way more experienced than I think that Jones's pre-flop advice is too loose. They suggest that you follow Sklansky's advice more closely if you have any of his texts.

2. Instead of just memorizing starting hand requirements, you need an understanding of why some hands play better in certain types of games. The best way to learn that is to read the posts here on 2+2, in addition to posting some of your trickier hands here for feedback.

3. I don't think that the flop raise was necessarily bad on it's own--it was your logic behind it ("the free card"), and your lack of a plan for how to proceed. Hopefully, with both study as well as posting hands here, you will begin to gain that knowledge.

4. I still don't know one way or the other how I like the idea of a turn raise. However, with only the two of you in the hand, it was easy enough from the turn forward to just call down his bets, without a fear of a reraise by another player. With all of the money in the pot already (even though much of it was yours), you needed to spend that one bet on the river to see his cards, for the following reasons:

1) Your education as a poker player
2) Your peace of mind
3) The possibility that you did have the better hand.

Good luck in your journey with this wicked game, and don't be afraid to post more hands--I'm usually much nicer than I was to you earlier /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[John J]

As far as constructive criticism is concerned, I'm all for it - I'm not here to be afraid of getting my feelings hurt, I'm here to improve my poker game. Which Sklansky book does he list starting requirements? Is it too early for me to pick up Hold'em for Advanced Players, and begin with Theory of Poker? Thanks again Chesspain.

[Bob T.]

I also felt some of Lee's starting cards are a bit loose, such as raising in mid position with ATo. How should I modify these? Change the number of limpers required or just drop things like K8s all together?

How I play preflop is always a work in progress.

Remember also, David's admonition in HPFAP,

'However, we want to state that by the time you reach expert status you shouldn't be thinking in terms of hand groups. At this point in your playing career your starting hand decisions should be based on the intrinsic value of each hand in each particular situation.'

It is all about the situation that you are in, and how you can expect the hand to play out in those situations. One of the first things that you learn, is not to play A-rag unsuited, but at the same time, there are situations, where I happily play A-rag unsuited.

Every hand plays a little different, and you have to find situations that you are comfortable with for those hands, and then let the hand and situation play out. You will find things that work for you, and you will also find things that don't work for you.

A couple of months ago, there was a string, about a hand where a player had played K9 suited second in, in Early Position, and myself, and several other posters took him to task for his preflop play. I think that the hand plays terribly in raised pots, so I was folding it for one bet if there where still several players left to act.

Dynasty came to the players defense, and said that he thought that K9 suited was one of the most underrated hands in Sklansky's groupings. I reevaluated the hand, and have tried playing it in more situations since then, and have had some success with the hand, and also its weaker sister Q8 suited.

Now K8, probably isn't that much weaker than K9, and your lone opponent on this hand had limped in in early position. Your choice to play this hand preflop, wasn't all bad. I think that I, and a couple of others probably mentioned that against one limper, if we were going to play in this situation, would have raised, and tried to isolate the limper, and then tried to win the pot, on the flop with another bet. Against a stronger player, or one who frequently limp reraises, it might be better to fold this preflop. If the blinds aren't going to defend frequently then this might also be a good time to try this play to create some dead money, but if they are going to play every time, then you might not want to try this, because you are going to be in a messy situation with a hand that probably doesn't play very well in a four handed pot.

It is always about the particular situation that you are in, and how you expect your opponents to react, and how well you think you can handle their reactions. So, keep playing, keep posting, and we will try and help you sort out those situations, and you try and do the same for us.

[Bob T.]

He lists his hand rankings in both Hold'em Poker, and HPFAP.

Although many posters think that people should wait until they have a fair amount of experience before reading HPFAP, I would go ahead and get it and start reading, as soon as you have the time. If you are going to play the game for a while, it is a book that you are going to read several times anyway, so you may as well start soon.

I also like the idea of reading theory of poker early on, because it gives you a basis for so many of the decisions that you have to make while you are playing.

[chesspain]

I actually started with HEFAP, although it confused me since I had only had the basics down at that point. If I were you I would read and reread Jones, while carefully beginning to wade through HEFAP, and realizing as I did so that many of the "fancy" plays he recommends might not work against the numb, calling stations who still haunt the passageways of the microlimit poker rooms. Some have said that newbies should rely more on Skansky for preflop advice, and Jones for how to play from there on.

[Mike Gallo]

I have recently purchased Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit Hold'em" book, and have been following his preflop betting guidelines to a T . In the book it says that if you are in middle position with three or fewer limpers in front, call KTs-K8s.

John,

You didnt follow it to a t. He says three or four limpers, you had one.

If you plan on playing the hand, raise or fold in that spot. I would have personally folded. . When the K comes on the turn you should raise. Yes he most likely hit his flush but you have outs. On the river fold. With four hearts he most likely has one. To waste a bet to prove yourself correct, does not make much sense to me.

Should I follow Lee's guidelines more loosely? Or am I somehow misinterpreting?

Formulate your own style. Poker cannot get played by a book. He gives suggestions and ideas on how to play. When you gain enough experience you will know the difference between the correct play and the wrong play.

My advice, play more post more and read these forums. You can only learn so much from a book.

[AceHigh]

K8s with 1 limper in late position is marginal.

On the flop, definately a raise or fold situation. I like folding, the pot is small, you are probably facing a better K, giving you only 3 outs.

On the turn, the draw you were hoping he had, just got there. You have 10 outs against the flush or 9 vs. a better K for a tie, 3 of them win you the pot. With 5BB in the pot, I would fold unless you can be pretty sure he has the flush.

See how playing these marginal hands is asking for trouble if you don't play them well? Fold on the flop and cut your losses. Or don't play them before the flop if you are going to get tied to mediocre flops for this hand.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
if we were going to play in this situation, would have raised,

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't necessarily agree. A lot depends on the limper and the blinds. Against a loose, tenacious player you will often have to showdown a hand to win in a raised pot. It will also start to effect your image, if you start to do this a lot, players will start going to showdown against you with anything reasonable.

I would only raise if I thought there was a decent chance getting the hand heads up vs. the limper and (more importantly) of winning the pot for a single bet on the flop.

OTOH, in the games I play in, you can usually win the pot on the flop with a bet in last position, if the action is checked to you and the pot is small.

[Aaron Lovi]

Preflop, if one person limps in front of you and you are in either the cutoff or you are the button then raising here and playing it strong postflop should be routine. Calling should not be routine. Unless the limper is some kind of superstar, folding should not be routine.

Your turn and river play, given what you did up to that point, is probably ok. There's a natural inclination to raise the turn to push the bettor off of his hand or positively determine that you're behind. I think the inclination should be ignored heads-up. If you're ahead and he's just firing bets to gain info himself, you don't mind him staying in the pot since he's probably drawing slim. If you're behind you spend only the one bet as you did in the actual hand.

[Ficus]

John J,

I have a copy of Jones' book, too; mine's the older edition, so I won't cite page numbers, but I don't think it says what you think it says. For example, he doesn't advocate raising with ATo anywhere that I can find.

The other reference you made was to "KJs - K8s" in middle position...if there are enough (3-4) callers ahead of you, Jones recommends calling with KJs - T8s. There's a key difference here: This means suited one-gappers KJ, QT, J9, and T8. (These have a chance at a straight draw, whereas K8s cannot use both cards in a straight.)

I'm also pretty new to the game, so I won't opine on how good Jones' guidelines are, but it helps to read them correctly. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

OTOH, if you do see the "KJs - K8s" guideline in the new edition, I think it's a typo. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[John J]

Ficus, and the previous poster who said I read the book wrong, please go back and re-read my previous posts. Perhaps our books are different, but this is in fact what Jones recommends:

In middle position, with three or fewer (not four) callers in front, call with KXs (to K8s). Anything above KTs he advises you to raise with.

In late position, with four or fewer callers in front, he tells you to raise with ATo as well as A9o.

[crockpot]

John is right; the new edition does say this.

I still don't think this hand is worth a call preflop with one limper to you, but Jones does apparently.