What is the best way to play this hand?

[Allan]

Here is a hand from Party 2-4. It is the typical game but this hand featured an atypical cap preflop.

It is folded to me UTG+2 and I raise with Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif. Next to act 3 bets.

PF3 bettor seems to be on tilt, Down to a short stack many of the hands he's involved in have shown him being a bit overly aggresive.

Late MP cold calls 3, Button caps. Sb calls BB folds and called around.

That makes 5 to the flop for 20 sb

Flop comes 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Now I'm not really sure where I am in the hand and there is no real way to protect it in this spot so after it gets checked to me I check to see what happens, maybe to see if I can get in a turn checkraise if it gets checked to the button. PF3 bettor bets and it gets called around. At this point, with the lack of aggression I think my hand being good is likely.

12 bb in the pot

Turn 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

checked to me I bet and PF3 raises. It gets one fold. everyone else calls and I call

20 bb in the pot

river 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif checked to PF3 who bets everyone calls.

Thoughts?

Allan

[ThingDo]

I raise might knock out the button on the flop, I think this drastically helps your chances of winning this hand. If you get 3-bet by the button I'd check fold on the turn. If you get 3-bet by the PF3 guy then I'd check call it down unimproved.

[Bandorn]

Preflop, Nice

Flop, I think yuo should have been more aggrosive. Either bet into PF3 or C/R and hope PF3 3bets. Yuo need to narrow this field down. Pocket QQ usually will not stand up at the river with this many callers.

[lil']

Bet and let mr. titly raise to protect your hand for you.

[Allan]

thanks for the responses so far everyone,

I'm still wondering if flop aggression is the way to go. Or if trying to do something on the turn is the way to go. with the pot being super huge, here are my thoughts:

With that flop, I'm assuming I'm up against 2 and 3 out hands and a possible 6 out hand AK. If I raise the PF3bettor to raise the flop here the hands I wanna get out are the 2 out hands if they fold great but if not it has done nothing to help me win the pot(if I'm ahead). If I checkraise and manage to get three bet I don't imagine the action in enticing anyone who called the flop bet to fold, given the size of the pot. They'll likely be getting between at least 12:1 or a little better on their flop call of the 3 bet. Also to note is that the pot becomes so large on the turn that all hands have a call.

Now the thing I'm wondering is if it is worth waiting till the turn to try and protect my hand. Do I risk too much? This way if I bet out and get the hopeful raise from the PF3bettor I have managed to reduce my opponents odds to 6:1 or a little better. Far too little for a 2, 3 out hand to call and maybe just on the neutral side for a 6 out hand to call.

This seems more appealing to me but I'm still not sure if it is worth the risk of the 2 outers hitting. As I write this and think more about it I'm satisfied with the way I played it. I'd still like to hear your argument if you believe flop aggression is a must.

Allan

[Bob T.]

You are in a tough spot, after the preflop action, but the pot is huge. I think that you played the hand reasonably, but I think that your opponent was probably the winner.

[Aaron Lovi]

The key in a hand like this is to recognize that in those cases where you can't protect your hand, put in as many chips up front as possible. You should try to maximize your ratio of investment up-front to your investment later when it appears you may be just "paying off".

It might be more accurate to say that you should try to maximize the ratio of the total chips entering the pot while you're ahead compared to the number of chips you invest when it appears you may be just "paying off". This points to checkraising the whole field on the flop once you determine there is no good way to protect your hand.

So I think you did fine up to the point where you should have c/r the flop. If you get 3-bet, you can call down. If you are not 3-bet, you should bet the turn. You could try to c/r the turn again, but expect to miss your c/r.

[Allan]

I call the river completely expecting to lose.

PF3bettor flips over AKd
PF capper flips over JJ
sb flips over 99

and sweet jeezus my hand is amazingly good.

Allan

[ajizzle]

With it being capped PF, you could easily be beaten with QQ, but then again, someone with an overpair like TT or JJ may bet thinking it's good.

For this reason, it is hard to see where you stand in the hand by betting out. With so many low cards out, any overpair ma raise and reraise.

I personally might bet the flop and see what happens. If there is a lot of action behind me, I will simply call down as long as an A or K doesn't roll off.

I think overall, your play was good.