Top but weak pair

[chucklhead]

Howdy all, I posted the following message to the beginner's forum and got the 4 responses at the end.

I am having problems when I hit a top, but small, pair. Should I be betting out, check-raising, check-calling, check folding? I am almost always able to check-raise at this table. This is microlimit at planet poker

For example,
I hold K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the big blind. We see an unraised flop 7 handed. The flop comes 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif


[ QUOTE ]
your hand is definitely not unplayable. however, it is vulnerable to so many turn cards that i would play passively on the flop, root for a nice looking turn card, and go for a check raise then.

if the turn card comes bad, which will happen a lot of the time, you probably ought to fold it then.

[/ QUOTE ] crocksucker

[ QUOTE ]
I usually bet these on the flop just so nobody gets free card. Hopefully you get one or two to fold. If no 'scary' card falls on the turn I do the same thing again.

[/ QUOTE ] NoChance

[ QUOTE ]
IN THE EXAMPLE YOU GAVE, MY CONCEARN WOULD BE THAT SOMEONE GOT 2 PAIR ON THE FLOP IN AN UNRAISED POT ESPECIALLY AT MICRO LIMITS PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO PLAY A 3 5 HOPING TO DRAW A STRAIGHT. AT LEAST TAHT HAS BEEN MY HAD EXPERIENCES

[/ QUOTE ] darryl2172

[ QUOTE ]
Turn your poor position in the big blind into an advantage. Consider checking the flop and hoping a late position player bets it so you checkraise. With this hand you want to narrow the field as quickly as possible.

[/ QUOTE ] Stu Pidasso

So all four of my original choices were suggested. Include the guy who said I should hope the SB bets so I can raise him, and you almost every option available.

Is there no general correct play. If it depends, what does it depend on? I can read the opening bet pretty well, but don't have a good read on what each player feels they need to call.

Thanks,
Chucklhead

[crockpot]

okay, assuming your hand is good here, you want to take the course of action that will knock people out as effectively as possible. it is definitely worth taking the risk that your hand is no good to do this, since winning a pot is much more rewarding than losing one.

so your goal should be to either go for a check raise now or on the turn. which is better? it really depends on how the others in your game play, and the size of the pot. here the pot is already seven small bets, and i suspect that anyone who has a pair or a gutshot is going to call two bets even if you check raise. they may be wrong to do so, but it will not be by a lot. if you wait until the turn to raise, you incur a significantly higher risk of being outdrawn; however, now the price of two double bets will be too high for any pair or gutshot to be making a good call on you.

the choice is up to you. i personally vote for getting a safe card and raising the turn, largely because you will have bad position on the turn betting round and more than half the deck will leave you with no clue where you stand. but raising on the flop certainly has merit.

[jdsmoooth]

If you are going to commit to this hand bet out. If you go for a check raise on the flop here and there are many players who have all called in front of you, they are more than likely not going to fold for 1 extra bet. You also have flush and straight draws on the board, your not going to get rid of any of those people with any kind of bet. And if you check raise you are just giving them better odds to draw to their hands. But what you will do by betting is
1. Anyone with garbage between you and the next good hand should fold.
2. Someone with a flush or open end straight draw (if there are any, and with 7 of you I imagine there are) should do the raising for you after you bet. Thus if it comes out of early position it should get rid of some suspect hands, maybe even one or two that would beat you later if they stay.
I really feel that this is the best way to narrow the field.
[ QUOTE ]
Turn your poor position in the big blind into an advantage. Consider checking the flop and hoping a late position player bets it so you checkraise. With this hand you want to narrow the field as quickly as possible.


[/ QUOTE ]
You are most likely not going to get through 5 players checking to late position with this flop and then turn your position into a big advantage by raising. If you check raise here you are probbaly going to end up playing this hand for 3 bets, because if I have a flush draw I am going to raise again, especially if there are already a lot of callers in the pot.
3. Realize this could get ugly here, There are flushes and straights on the board with a large multi way pot. You may also strongly want to consider checking and folding here. What if you check and then it comes back to you for a three bet. I wouldn't be suprised. How much do you like your 8's now? Maybe they hold up maybe they don't. There is a lot of risk involved in playing this hand.
4.Lets say that you bet and three people call. What you think is a safe card for you comes on the turn, you bet out, and you have to, because you don't want to give the drawing hands any free cards. Those drawing hands are still not going anywhere, they have got perfect odds to stay in this the whole way. Not only can these hands draw out on you to make straights or flushes they can pair up with just about anything over an 8.
Honestly... If I play..I bet first, if there are a lot of callers and I get raised twice, I fold. If the field narrows to two other players and myself, or everyone who stays just calls... I play, and I play aggressively if that flush or straight doesn't hit on the turn.
More than likely I am lookin for a good reason to ditch this hand. And the flop is just scary enough with all of those callers.

[Max Weinberg]

Bet out and hope to get raised by a flush draw so you can three-bet and lose all the random straight drawers and over-cards that are out there. With seven people out there you can't really be sure where the bet will come from, and a check-raise won't knock anybody out if the bet comes early and they've all called anyways. I think betting out and trying to three-bet gives you the best possibility of weeding out drawers and protecting your hand.