Women can't play poker?

[shrub]

So from playing poker games in WA, LV, and Canada, it seems that the majority of poker players out there are male. Heck even on TV (like the WSOP and the WPT) I don't recall seeing more than one or two female players.

So why is this the case? Sure, poker has traditionally been a men's game, but unlike sports you don't have to be fit physically to play poker. Do women lack that "sixth sense" or the aggressiveness to play well?

[Cyndie]

Actually from lots of experiences in competetive arenas in tennis, bowling, gymnastics, bridge and poker...poker is one of the few endeavors where women have any real advantage on any level.

While there may not be many women on the top of the tournament trail, there are many women online who are making good money playing poker online, and quite a few who do well at the local casinos here in AZ...

Other sports or games do not offer the possibility of making a living at anything but the highest levels. A "Good" woman tennis player may make a living giving lessons, I don't know, but not a "good" bowler, or golfer or bridge player.

I was told by Edgar Kaplan, one of the biggest names in bridge, that women didn't have the killer instinct, and in the seventies, that upset me. However, in poker, while many men would argue that the killer instinct is needed, if you allow for the possibility that shearing the sheep is better than skinning them for the long-term, then you may agree that women have an actual advantage, at least in the more social atmosphere of mid-limit poker.

Long live Poker!

[Warren Whitmore]

If you walk into a large poker room and look at the 1:3 limit tables you will see an interesting site. A mixture of ethnic backgrounds and gender which approximates the population of the area of the casino (assuming you are not in a tourist area). If you look at the 300:600 tables you will see a very different population mix with a very heavy representation of males, Jews, and Asians. If one looks at investors on main street one will see the same thing. Small time investors representing a mix of the American population. Big time investors largely male and Jew. Could it be just that they have more money? No. Go to the high limit slot machine, roulette, wheel of fortune whatever they are represented by the outside population all the way through the limits. I am forced to hypothesis that games of skill Chess, poker, stocks, ceo's of coprorations, inventors, etc. favor males. This appears true wheather the intellectual success is from the employment, self employment, buissness, or investment sectors. This cannot be random chance. To be succesful at anything one must be above the 2nd standard deviation for apptitude, education, and experiance. Education and experiance are readily available to all so lets look at aptitude (I spell alot of words different everytime I type them sorry about that)In the "bell curve" Charles Murrey explains that the average IQ for men and woman is exactly the same at 100. However and this is important, men have a standard deviation of 15 points where as females have a standard deviation of 13 points. This is why ocupations which are high IQ like chess and investing tend to be tightly packed with men. Also it is why areas which are very low IQ tend to be highly packed with men prisons, where they put of the screw ups at hight school etc. Woman tend to more tightly packed in the normal range and therefor there are fewer of them 2 standard deviations above or below the mean.

[Cyndie]

Your data match what I have read, and also my personal experience.

One thing that wasn't mentioned, was the idea that when you do get to the right end of the bell curve, that the differences between men and women...no i don't mean those...but the hand eye coordination and spacial perception abilities tend to lessen.

What you talk about explains much of the reason for under representation of women in positions of extremes...CEO's and athletes. Thank you for the reminders.

[PAUL-IN]

OK so far, i've read between the lines and it seems like you posters don't think much about a womans play in general. the killer instinct you talk about isn't lacking per se in all the women i've played against, unless they have no real interest in the game, but play it anyway.

i've played women who were absolute ROCKS at the table, and accumulated towers of chips. likewise, i've played women who don't know that quads on a board with 4 spades is a good hand. In the last case, it's more about ignorance of the game, not "lack of killer-instinct." killer instinct in a game that is percieved just as a "game", not as a way to make money, is found in those who truly either love the game for it's challenges, or have learned it's intricacies to a point where he/she thinks he/she can turn an apparently losing situation into a winning one.

i've seen more women call down bluffs more times than men, and i see women play only about 5% of the time.
Likewise, I've had women play in my home game and they'd be trapping all night long, exploiting the male-ego and taking the chips down.

let me ask this: if you had a 10 handed holdem game, no limit, with 5, random, regular playing males and 5 random, regular playing females, who would win more, males or females?

the question of course is flawed, because it implies that the % of men to women in poker is 50/50, which we know is not the case. however, if what i read in the posts is right, clearly the women will lose, because of their lack of "killer-instinct", and validates the biased tone of the question.

in short, i've played women, and i've lost. /images/graemlins/smile.gif i've seen good players play women, and get outplayed. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cyndie]

I really am a woman, and nothing I posted says women do not play as well as men...just differently.

I make a living playing ten twenty stud at Empire, and have for a couple years. The key difference is whether or not ithas to be killer to be winner. That was the point I was trying to make about shearing versus skinning the sheep. If you shear a sheep, the fleece grows back and you can shear it again. If you skin the sheep it dies, and you have no more fleece.

My point was that women do not need to kill to win. However, I doubt any of the people who play against me say I do not try to get the most from my cards, via check raises, deceptive plays, betting a board that doesn't quite match what my hole cards are (once in a while) and in general playing the best I can.

However, even though I was on the PPM tourney last year, there was no doubt in my mind that many many of the players were much better than I in technique and experience. However, it is not my nature to take the last chips from a weak player via a check raise, not because I can't, but because I want him to come back, not leave and give up poker.

The comments made about intelligence of women tending to clump around "average" and men spread out more evenly from top to bottom is factual! Perhaps some is cultural, but not all. Men and women are different. Equivalent means equal in value, but not the same!

The computer generation may be changing some of this, but many men of my generation complain vehemently about playing multiple tables, or writing email while playing or even chatting while playing. I rarely meet a woman who has problems multi tasking. We have always done it...watch the kids out of one eye and cook or work at another project with the other one.

The hand eye coordination for throwing a baseball or a spear are totally different from the small motor skills of threading a needle or typing. I owned a delivery service business for years and happened to be able to send ten different drivers out in ten directions at once and have them meet at certain locations to transfer packages to increase effectiveness. This involved doing distance rate and time problems in my head, automatically to be able to get everyone at the same time and place. However, most of the time, women are not very good at that type of spatial perception...it is a skill excellent chess players have. Though I am not even a mediocre chess player, I often beat people who are not practived players, because I understand that chess is a game of conquering territory, not moving pieces on the board.

It is the same type of concept as "Theory of Poker" when they talk about seeing the cards. It is not a skill that most women excel at. Not that NO women excel, but just proportionately fewer

The other factor is accessibility to learning the game. Women are not encouraged to play games where winning is everything. They are encouraged to play games where cooperation is successful. Which is more likely to get a person into a poker game?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I don't think women lack the sixth sense needed for poker. Rather I believe that women in this country are simply not socialized to be nearly as competitive as men. After all, boys are encouraged to be highly competitive all their lives (especially in sports), while this is not nearly as true for girls. I also think the testosterone factor reinforces the general tendency for men to be more competitive (and aggressive) than women. Another thing is that poker is somewhat of an egotistical game, and we all know that men (obviously) have much bigger egos than women.

I sure wish there were more women poker players tho....

al

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Al C. Jr. gets it right. The primary reason more women don't play poker professionally is because they are not socialized to do so. My aunt has been playing poker for FORTY YEARS. However, she played only in home games until the last 5 years. There are many women who play home games, but haven't yet hit the green felt of the casinos.

It is absurd to suggest that women are not successful in competitive endeavors like sports, investing and poker. If you think there are not many excellent players in all categories you are not paying attention. I know many women in various occupations who play very, very hard and who are much more successful than their male counterparts will ever be. As for poker, I am not just talking about Annie, Kathy and Jennifer. There are many exceptional female players out there.

Re: the I.Q. discussion, it is absurd to suggest that a difference of 2 points in an I.Q. test is statistically significant. So few people are 2 s.d's above the mean as measured by an I.Q. test, that it is irrelevant if that difference is a mere 2 or 3 or even 8 points.

Also, the spatial skills needed in chess and poker are certainly not confined only to the male right hemisphere. Babe's have them too....the brain is the same in women as in men.

I think as time goes on and poker becomes more "legitimate" as a profession, more women will excel at it. I know that some of us are already doing so.

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Mark Heide]

PokerBabe(aka),

I have a problem of getting my mom or sister to play poker in Vegas. They have played fine in home games without a problem, but when they see a table full of men they have no inclination to even try. I think the solution could possibly be reached by the larger casinos having low-limit womens only games.

But, for now next time I take mom to Vegas we'll be playing slots.

Good Luck

Mark

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Other comments on socialization of men vs. women...

If you grew up in the south, and are a male, you are taught that Football = the pathway to holiness. Sports, sports, sports, all day long. They treat football players like gods (and non-football players mostly like [censored], trust me, I know). It's pummelled into the brains of boys from their first day of gym class, and never really stops. It's the same reason that fewer women than men understand the rules of football, not because they can't, but because they didn't have it pummelled into their heads from an early age. Women are not socialized into being so darn competitive mostly because they're not forced to endure the tremendous pressure to do well at sports like men are. At least that's my personal theory on the matter.

It should be noted that just because women are not *generally* socialized into being as competitive as men does not mean they are any less good at it when they choose to be. I used to spar with a female black-belt in tae-kwon-do who could kick the ass of most men before they knew what hit them.

Women should take advantage of an inherent advantage they have at the poker table: the excessively large egos of men. Men often do not give women players the respect they should, and the ladies can and should take advantage of this. I know you do Babe....

I've always thought that a nice bubbly perky girl, hair flipping, perfume driving the boys wild, saying things like "don't ask me, I'm just a girl! tee hee! ** " could do better than a man who was exactly equally skilled, as long as she played against mostly men. We're pretty gullible, easily distracted, and of course we rarely think women can play poker well, i.e. this thread....

I didn't read all of the thread, I guess I will have to now because I don't know where those IQ comments came from. Absurd tho to think a few points makes any difference, I agree with Babe. I really think those tests are over-rated anyway. It should be obvious whether someone is smart (or an idiot) within a short period of time.

al

** = quote from Malibu Stacy talking doll on "the Simpsons" episode

[Cyndie]

Poker is wonderful for women...women are wonderful for poker.

However, men and women are genetically and culturally different...equal in value but different.

Hope no one read anything I wrote as apologizing or implying that women weren't fine poker players....except when I am at your table, you don't have to pay any attention to me at all...I am a certifiable fish...just bring plenty of money to show me how well you play.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
I was told by Edgar Kaplan, one of the biggest names in bridge, that women didn't have the killer instinct, and in the seventies, that upset me.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the risk of getting skinned, I think this is actually true on a *generalized* level, but perhaps not for the reasons you might think. There's one thing men have that women don't: a huge dose of testosterone (near lethal doses for some of us). Sure, I feel for women, with their cycle and hormones and all that, but us men have to deal with a huge dose of one hormone that basically makes us horny and aggressive, often very much so. That's why I think the killer instinct is less prevalent in women, not because they don't have the aptitude to play poker. Testosterone just makes men naturally much more aggressive, and competitiveness comes along with it.

As I stated in another post, women can have an advantage at the table, especially if they have the killer instinct and know what they are doing.

al

[Cyndie]

Yes...after a couple pregnancies and those hormones, lol, I know that emotions do the dipsy doodle with women too...just not fight or flight, but cry or fly high...

Again and again...not better or worse, just different, and the "normal" result will be women at mid level and men at the extremes of almost everything, and certain nationalities reinforce those with cultural forces.

[daryn]

a lot of women get upset about certain biological differences between your average man and your average woman, such as lack of killer instinct. there's a reason your average man will have the killer instinct whereas your average woman will not.. we are humans.. basically animals, women will be more nurturing on average and men will be more ... you get the picture. don't deny biology! it kept the human race alive all these years!

[mosch]

I was flush with cash this weekend so I went and engaged in a new adventure and played about 10 hours of 20/40 HE.

The best player at the table, by far, was an extraordinarily gorgeous blonde. She made a lot of small talk, and was regularly asking questions about the playability of this or that, and she succeeded in getting a number of players to accurately describe their play. (I assume they were just happy to have something to talk with her about for a few minutes... and there appeared to be very few bits of misinformation)

On top of that, a number of the men at the table clearly dismissed her as an opponent, staying in pots against her when they would've folded to anybody else with the same betting patterns.

[Cyndie]

tag questions, are a female trait. Eg. The sun will rise tomorrow, right?

They have traditionally been called a sign of weakness or insecurity by males...little did they know. A friend of mine is one of the highest priced call-girls, escorts, hookers, tantric professionals, around. She has amassed an incredible amount of "pillow-talk" information. Her advice to me, the school teacher, read---know it all---was to ask men to talk or brag, and tell me what they know.

I must admit, I do use those ideas to great advantage even though I am now clearly the matronly mother-figure, not the fox who was too dumb to take advantage of the situation, lol. Guys still answer my questions and show me their hole cards a hundred times more often than they would a man!

[Al Schoonmaker]

I am probably going to write an article, tentatively titled, "The Battle of the Sexes," about male-female differences and their implications at the poker table.

If you know of any published work that might be useful, please bring it to my attention. I am looking for solid, scientific work, not diatribes.

You can send me a PM here or an email at BOTH alannschoonmaker@hotmail.com AND alannschoonmaker@cs.com. Note the second "n" after "alan."

I ask you to send to both addresses because something is very wrong with my computer, and many emails have been lost in cyberspace.

Thank you.

Regards,

Al

[squiffy]

This is a topic that fascinates me. You see the same phenomenon, perhaps more so at chess tournaments.

1. Social pressure. It is traditionally not seen as an activity befitting a gentleman or a good girl. It is the sport of construction workers, sailors, and ruffians.
This does not explain why this is the tradition. Nor does it mean women do not have the "skills" to play poker well.

2. It is a highly competitive, nasty sport, like chess. Zero sum with a winner crushing a loser. In general women either naturally or through socialization, are much less likely, on average, to take pleasure in crushing an opponent. Perhaps having to do with hormones and also with socialization, women tend to be more nurturing than men. I think large doses of testosterone clearly can increase competitiveness and aggressiveness, so there may be a biological basis for this, as women traditionally raise and breast feed and nurture children.

Even among chimpanzees the men hunt and defend the territory, while the females watch over and care for the young.

3. Women in general (not all women), either by nature or by socialization, or both seem to prefer social interactive activities, conversation, discussion, cooperative interaction, more than men.

Chess and poker really aren't all that social when compared to shopping or cooking. The vast majority of the time you are sitting there for hours at a stretch, sitting silently, waiting for an opportunity to crush your opponent. THis is a much more aggressive, nasty, competitive win-lose activity.

Yes, there is some talking. But really not much when you consider other social activities like having lunch together, going to a party, etc.

4. Good poker does seem to involve some interest and ability in probability and math. While women can do this, traditionally, I think boys tend to have slightly higher math skills on average and girls tend to have slightly higher verbal social skills on average.

Statistically speaking, the strongest rated chess players have been men. Rarely has a woman been rated in the top ten in the world, until the 1990's when one of the three Polgar sisters became a top grandmaster or grandmistress.

Again, partly perhaps natural and biological and partly socialization.

If you go to a top tier math or physics class at MIT or CALTECH or HARVARD you will find mostly males in the class.

[squiffy]

I forgot to answer your question. I think women can play poker and many play it very well. But I think the average woman isn't as interested in poker as much as the average man.

The average man and the average woman have very different interests and preferences, for many complicated reasons, some biological and some based on socialization.

[squiffy]

Actually, thanks to the miracle of modern medicine, I know several sheep, personal friends of mine, who were skinned, but are still alive, thanks to the miracle of artificial skin. If you are a sheep and have recently been relieved of your skin, please PM me for more information about how you too can live on through the miracle of artificial skin.

[Cyndie]

ROFL


however, the ROI of shearing versus skinning is not even close!

[SittingBull]

[Mike]

I don't know about just mid limit, but I agree. Women in poker have a lot going for them from what I see. Leaving is not bad advice.

Women have far more patience, if I have ever seen a woman on tilt, she hid it very well.

Women are much more social than men, it helps them to see many subtle things a man does that other men probably miss.

I have never seen a man guess my holdings with the consistancy of a few women I play against.

Women smell a whole lot better and generally are much more pleasant to sit next to!

Women who's play I understand bluff much more than the average male player, and it shows in their steady stack growth.

Finally women can tilt a man quicker than another man can tilt a man.

All my opinion of course....

Sorry if any of these are repeats, Sitting Bull's header sent chills down my spine. Two or three women in the game and I usually want to run, because they are adept at outplaying the table sometimes with sneaky hands no-one expects them to be holding.

[Warren Whitmore]

To send emails to the locations you mentioned. They were returned to me with error messages and so I am not certain wether you recieved them or not. I will therefor repeat them here.

The Bell Curve by Richard Herrnstein & Charles Murray
Page 275 under Jews,Latinos, and Gender.
Jews specifically, Ashkenazi Jews of European origins test higher than any other ethnic group. A fair estimate seems to be that Jews in America and Britain have an overall IQ mean somewhere between a hlf and a full standard deviation above the mean....The larger variation among men means that there are more men than women at either extreme of the IQ distribution.

Poker, Gaming, & Life By David Sklansky Page 186

A very small difference among average values can turn into a big difference in the tails of the normal distribution.....It is for this reason that people form stereotypes when there is only a modicum of truth to them.

Poker, Gaming, and life David Sklansky Page 8

Those players who play just a little bit better than thier colleagues will find that their slightly higher win rate...will, as time goes by, result in a much bigger bankroll and playing in much bigger games. Players out there who wonder why some of the world class players are doing so much better than you when they only play a little bit better than you do should think about what I'm saying.

[Cyndie]

[Cyndie]

[ QUOTE ]
Women smell a whole lot better and generally are much more pleasant to sit next to!


[/ QUOTE ]

This brings up an entirely different point that I do not believe I have seen so far...The idea of pheromones...those pervasive odorless odors, that affect our instinctual reactions.

[Ed Miller]

I've noticed a profound difference between the way that non-poker-playing women view poker now versus how they viewed it nine months ago. Nine months ago, when I introduced myself to a woman and we started talking, if I revealed that I played poker seriously, the most common response was something along the lines of, "Oh... how... nice. Good, ummm, luck with that. I have to go." I could see the, "why do they all have to be degenerate losers?" look plastered across her face.

Now, more often than not, I get genuine interest. Many have watched it on TV (often "with my brother" or "with my boyfriend"... I think maybe they still aren't 100% comfortable with it). My guess is that seeing attractive, articulate people on TV playing poker has done the most to change the image. I expect to see more women, especially 20-40 year old women, around poker rooms for the next couple of years.

[Mike]

I was thinking of the movie, "Scent of a woman" at that moment. Not poker related, but most men to me smell like what ever laundry soap, fabric softener and deoderant their wives buy for them. Somehow women manage to create a scent for themselves that is mostly unique to their person. I don't know how they do it!

Back to the table...I haven't had the _pleasure_ of sitting next to any woman who doesn't understand basic personal sanitation and cleanliness. I can't say the same for some men.

To back track a little if no one minds, I think the reason for so few women in high level poker is until recently is because in most of the country, medium to big limit poker games were an underground activity.

How many women are going to play in some basement, risk robbery, muggings, and other not so nice things that could befall them at or after leaving an illegal game? Then if they are married too, what husbands would think it's a good idea for their wives to go play?

As for pheromes, at 20 something who needs them? After you are older, other things become more important in a mate, imo.

[Cyndie]

Haven't been married since I started poker, so don't know that end. I do know that the idea of a non poker playing partner is totally inconceivable.

You are right. I have never played a home game, much less a basement back alley game with a grand in my purse!

However, I think the pheromones are distinct from hormones...I don't think they diminish in effectiveness even into middle age. I hope Dr. Alan can find out more about this!

[Cyndie]

it will be important to be civil and gentlemanly, all the while playing your best poker...well, maybe not against me...but against the guys!

Keep reminding the women that it is a game of skill, and do a good job of financial planning...nothing so sexy to a woman as a healthy portfolio!

AND, that isn't golddigging!

I know from my own perspective, I am tired of the idea of supporting another husband, lol! I worked hard to be able to retire at 50...Poker is a great, but a guy looking for a buy in at my age is a real drag!

I work with lots of younger players helping them get a career playing poker...complete with a house and a paid for car and savings and social security payments...Those are the things that make a guy attractive especially to a woman who is still thinking about a family!

[Al Schoonmaker]

Thank you for the information. I did receive an email containing it a couple of days ago.

I have no idea why you got the "can't deliver" message, but I get it and similar messages all the time. Worse yet, a lot of emails to and from me are lost in cyberspace.

Something is very wrong with my email or computer. My computer gremlins are the meanest critters in creation.

Al

[Cyndie]