At what limit do players have a clue?

[RollaJ]

Ive recently moved up from 10-20 to 15-30 and noticed something interesting..... the players seemed to have an idea about how to play Texas Hold'em. In moving up from 2-4 (I started playing poker in April 2002) I have never been afraid of the players at the next limit, but rather of the money at stake, there was never a need to fear the players. Lo and behold I now see that there are other good players out there.

I am not saying that I never saw good players before, but in my particular cardroom (Taj Mahal in AC) it seems thats where you reach a limit that on average 8/10 people at the table know how to play relatively well. Sure, some are a little too loose, some are a little too tight, some are passive some aggresive, but you can still tell that people know how to play. It seems I have reached a limit where I still win, but the games arent as great as the lower limits where people just throw in their money chasing a dream.

[RollaJ]

It seems I may have over estimated my opposition.....
This weekend I see the flop with pocket sixes, due to all the limpers having been caught for a raise I have odds to see the turn when the preflop raiser on the button bets the flop. The turn brings the 3rd heart and all check to the raiser who bets and all fold back to me. I have the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and am not sure if I am drawing live to a heart or not, I figure I should fold when the bettor says fold, and shows me Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for top pair. I said well whats the other card and he showed me K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. So..... of course I now have odds to call with 11 outs, and I did, and I missed /images/graemlins/frown.gif

The AMAZING part, was not one person at the table could understand why Id call with a pair of sixes when he showed me top pair of queens


I love the Taj

[Mike Gallo]

I am not saying that I never saw good players before, but in my particular cardroom (Taj Mahal in AC) it seems thats where you reach a limit that on average 8/10 people at the table know how to play relatively well

If that is the case you need to find greener pastures.

[DanZ]

it should be obvious when he wants you to fold that he does not hold a heart.

[Vehn]

Frankly this sort of talk kinda pisses me off. Part of being a mid limit player is frequently your game selection is not very good. My game selection typically is a) the 1 $15/$30 game or b) the 1 $30/$60 game, or the $8/$16 games which I doubt have twice the expectation of $15/$30 for me and not really worth my time.

I think a lot of players confuse tight with tough. There's many mid limit players out there who simply play close to the right numbers of hands in the right spots and let nature take its course. This allows them to get by with poor postflop play and wind up around break even. There is definetly money to be made in these games - as I've said before I'm almost never in a game where I'm comfortable limping UTG with small pairs or ace rag suited because I don't feel I'll often enough get the cheap multi-way flops that these hands require, but I do just fine in these tighter games, and actually in many ways prefer them to the wild games. Its simply about playing better than your opponents.

[Mike Gallo]

Frankly this sort of talk kinda pisses me off. Part of being a mid limit player is frequently your game selection is not very good.

Not true, you have to know where to look.

The poster discussed a specific limit. At the Taj Mahal in AC most of the $15-$30 games have decent to solid players. The $20-$40 and $10-$20 games usually have below average to average players. Why the $20-$40 game plays softer than the $15-$30, I have no idea.

My point to the poster, sit in other games check out the other casinos. The Borgata seems to have softer games than the Taj, the poster should take a visit see how the games play and take it from there.

[berya]

I have not played much in Taj in the last 5months or so. I did play this weekend and the 20-40 was really really soft. That said. I have played a lot of hours at the Taj in the past. IMO the 15-30 is much softer than the 20-40 and has been like that for years.

[RollaJ]

I knew what I wrote would be misunderstood, but couldnt think of a clearer way to express myself. I do not mean to say that 80% are great or even good players, what I am trying to say is that I rarely see the blatant stupidity I was accustomed to, at the lower limits. I can beat these games, but have been considering 20-40 because the times Ive sat in them they do seem softer (I agree, who knows why). Unfortunately, I started a year and a half ago, and have been very disciplined in moving up limits only when my bankroll from other peoples money (winnings) has justified it. At this point however I feel I could use about $2500 more to go to 20-40, as I would like to have at least 250 BB to move up to 20-40 as they are at times very aggressive in that game (up till now I have been moving up with 200 BB).
I could of course add money from the bank, but I'd like to just do it the "right" way, and hey the extra practice cant hurt /images/graemlins/grin.gif. The way I see it , by the time I get back from the foxwoods tourney I should be there (assuming the games are as great as they were last year)

[Vehn]

Well yeah if you are in a position to have the opportunity for game selection then you would be a fool not to take it. However I think If you want to be a major success you simply have to be able to win against better players, or at least players that aren't bad in the obvious bad player ways of playing too many hands and going to far with them passively. While Dynasty's "If I can't play small pairs UTG I leave the game" policy may be admirable to some I just simply can't imagine that a) there's that many middle limit games in Vegas where you can profitably play those hands anyways and b) that leaving the typical $20/$40 game where you can't play these hands to play in a $10/$20 game where you can means that your expectation is more than double in the smaller game.

[Tommy Angelo]

Ebb and flow. Here's an odd one. The cutoff point at Lucky Chances is, on some days, between $6-12 and $9-18. And I don't mean a fine line. I'm talking they'll have two $6-12's going where nearly everyone sees every flop for one bet maybe two, and a couple $20-40 games playing medium tough to soft, and one $9-18 game that is the worst game in the room.

As to what makes, or indicates, that a game is soft or tough, I think it has very little to with postflop play. I'd be perfectly happy making every game-selection decision of my life based only on the preflop tendencies of the opponents. Limping btf equals soft. Folding and raising btf equals tough. The more limping, the softer the game, end of story.


Tommy

[jen]

I've heard people say that -- that the LC 9-18 is often the worst game in the house. But I never thought so. It certainly depends on what you mean by "having a clue", but at LC, I'd say it's the 20-40. The 9-18 has less action than the 6-12, but there's lots of limping and passive post-flop players. The first time that I played the 20 after regularly playing the 9-18, some regular told me that I played too passively to beat the game. In retrospect, I agree.

[NLfool]

in LA or the general socal area I've played up 30-60 and at that point you still get people who will cold call 2-3 bets with AJs, flush and straight draws with a pair on board, small pairs, raise UTG with QJ, call to the river with KK when an A hits, people playing A rag. The NL is even worse but most NL games are 100 or 200 buyin so I kinda expect the same type of plays as online. Now 20-40 is really bad it's like playing 2-4. consistently the 9-18 with a $3 SB and $9 BB at commerce is pretty tight for LA. go figure

[I.Rowboat]

I play 20-40 at both LC and Bay101, and I think at both clubs this is the level where many more players understand how to play the game. Not that they all play it well (thankfully /images/graemlins/smile.gif ), but the overall quality of play is much better than the 6-12 at these clubs.

At LC, the 9-18 is something of the ugly stepchild in the room -- too big for most low limit players, too small for the mid/high limit "action" players. The monetary step from 9-18 to 20-40 seems to concentrate certain types of players at the 9-18 level, and these aren't the players you'd like to be playing against for hours at a time. It's not that the game can't be beaten, but God, beating it sure ain't much fun. In my experience, the 9-18 players tend to focus more on playing the cards rather than playing the player, whereas at the 20-40 level I think you get a better mix of good card players and good "people players," which means that an even better "people player" has some room to manuever. In my experience, the 9-18 game at LC is often full of people that have absolutely NO intention of playing at a higher limit. Fill a table with these folks and you get a rock garden. I don't think this makes for a very fun game.

[turnipmonster]

this may be off topic for this thread, don't y'all enjoy playing in tough games sometimes? Sure I play poker in part for money, and it's always nice to have some person throwing their chips in the pot with bottom pair or a gutshot every other hand. But I also play (primarily) for fun, and I thoroughly enjoy sparring with (and learning from) the better players at my table. I have sat in games that were too tough for me just to watch and learn from players who I thought could teach me something.

so I guess to me a "good game" is a good mix of people of different skill levels. I would probably quit playing if my game was just all fish.

--turnipmonster

[LondonBroil]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of players confuse tight with tough. There's many mid limit players out there who simply play close to the right numbers of hands in the right spots and let nature take its course. This allows them to get by with poor postflop play and wind up around break even.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's me!

[Duke]

Though the mid limit games do have "clueful" players, I'll have to say that the level of play doesn't shift dramatically until you get into the higher limit games (triple digit small bet). For instance, it's easy to find a 15, 20, or 30 stud game in LA that you can beat just by playing tight, without great post-4th street play. This changes as you go up. Yes, you find fish at every level, but the skillful players are a lot better the higher you go.

I think some people end up getting married to a limit, and a certain type of opponent. Since most of the top players worked their way up, they have learned which adjustments to make to beat all of the games.

I know someone will disagree, but I figured I'd give my unsolicited opinion anyhow.

~D

[bigfishead]

I very much agree with the Tommy and the other 2 posts regarding the LC 9-18 game. It didnt start out that way when they first spread that game. It was very juicy.

Now remember that I have been away from the area for 18 months, but the funny thing is that right across the bay at Casino San Pablo is the juiciest 9-18 I've ever seen. My win rate was over 2BBhr there. This of course could have changed by now. But they rarely ever spread a game higher. The bad, action type 6-12 players loved to move up when stuck and try to gamble it back up to even. This is the game where I once one a pot with over 60 BB's in it. I flopped the nuts and never put in a raise till I got to cap it on the river.

Yet I would regularly pik the 6-12 at LC over the 9-18 at LC. And my BR was never large enough for the 20-40 at LC when it was good, so I rarely ventured there.

[MrGrob]

[CrackerZack]

Me too generally. I cream stupid loose games. I love the kill games that used to live at Mohegan for just this reason. But when it tightens up, I tend to struggle more. I'm working on it but I think (hope) this is a common problem for people moving up.