Top pair/bad kicker vs. few players

[Gomez22]

Recently at a 1/2 Empire game with a couple decent players at the table (none of them involved in this hand).

I mucked K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif from EMP.... mostly because UTG called...... he was new to table, so didn't know much about him. MP called, as did BB. 3 to flop.

FLOP: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG bet out, MP folded, BB called.

TURN: 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG bet, BB folded.

My question is: If I woulda stayed in on this pot (and for future reference when the situation arises) should you/I raise if a EP bets out and you have top pair/bad kicker, or should you just call and see what the turn brings? From there, if not improving, go into check/call mode? OR...
if you raise and don't improve, try for the free card if bettor is on your right and checks to you. And... what if bettor is on your left? If you bet out and get raised, do you call? What if you call and then get raised on the turn?

I know......... too many damn questions, but all these popped into my mind while watching this hand.

Thanks in advance to any who reply.

[ThingDo]

Firstly, I'd have to argue against playing Kxs. You should rarely be in the situation to worry about your kicker when the flop comes K high. I may be too tight, but I can't remember the last time I played Kxs even in late position after many limpers. As for your other questions I'm going to hand that one over to someone more able. However, all of those questions become much easier when you aren't in the hand at all. UTG calling here shouldn't change the fact that you are folding Kxs

[Mike Gallo]

Gogo,

In the above scenario, your playing a weak hand out of position.

If you raise the flop or turn, you will get called or raised by a better hand.

You should not play a K 7 suited from that position. That hand will cause you to bleed money away.

[Gomez22]

I think you guys missed the gist of my post. I didn't play the hand here, I mucked it PF. I was just asking about HOW to play when you flop top pair/weal kicker. KXs I rarely play also, I might if I can limp from CO or button with at least 4 others already limping in front of me or maybe from the blinds. But I have been in positions before where I flop top pair with a weak kicker. Sometimes I'm not really sure of how to play the hand, and was asking opinions of how this can be done. The hand I posted was purely for example.

[ThingDo]

I guess I did misunderstand your post... because it sounded like you really want to play this hand and are having trouble playing hands with bad kickers. While I'm no expert by any means I'm sure you'll find that if you don't play Kxs after even the entire table has limped and you are on the button you still aren't giving up much. While some of you might disagree I don't think you are losing much at all.

[chesspain]

I'll play Kxs from LP, but mostly as a drawing hand to the flush. Depending on how weak my kicker was, I'ld be prepared to much it on a flop like yours in response to any kind of action, although if everone threw in one bet before it got to me, the pot would then be so large that I'ld probably toss in another bet myself to see the turn card.

That's another advantage to playing hands like this from LP--you have a better sense of the true pot odds by the time the action comes around to you.

[johnb]

I have seen it said more than once in poker literature and found it to be the case that if you are going to play king weak kicker suited you have to be able to get away from it unless you flop a good draw or trips.

In your scenario, you call with king-weak kicker after four other calls. If a king flops and there is a bet to you, I think it is very difficult to think you have the best hand. Of course, it is player dependent, but you are usually right to fold.

One of the basics of holdem is to know what you want to flop when you play a hand. With king-weak kicker suited, (an you can probably say this about ace-weak kicker suited) you are looking for a flush draw or you need to be prepared to fold. These are they types of hands in which you win a little money and lose a lot potentially.
jb

[ThingDo]

If I'm playing Kxs I'm not going to muck a K high flop for one bet. Maybe thats part of my problem

[Gomez22]

I was asking
HOW TO PLAY WHEN YOU FLOP TOP PAIR WITH WEAK KICKER.


THE HAND WAS JUST THE HAND THAT CAUSED THE QUESTION.......

[Robk]

[ QUOTE ]
HOW TO PLAY WHEN YOU FLOP TOP PAIR WITH WEAK KICKER.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of pages could be written about this topic. It's very situation dependent. You'll learn more by posting specific hands than asking for a general strategy.

[chesspain]

I thought I did answer your question. The answer is valid for any top pair/weak kicker, not only kings. Maybe if you had read it carefully rather than just flaming back in caps when you did not get a simplistic answer spoon-fed to you, you would have seen a reasonable answer to an overly vague question /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Gomez22]

Thank you... .at least someone understood the question. Everyone seemed to think since I posted an example hand I had just went through (I mucked the hand PF... just so you know... they all seem to think I played it, too), it was about KXs.

I figured this would be one of those hands that would rely almost solely on the situation you're in at the time, but I've been in it lots of times lately, only to find that I coulda won or woulda lost. I usually take the "safe" play and muck it if I don't have any idea of what to do when the turn comes, but I know that this has cost me money before.... and saved me some at other times.

Just figured I'd get alot of responses here....... didn't think they'd all be about KXs, though.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Gomez22]

OK... I apologize if I read it wrong...(and for the caps) what I took it for was in relation to KXs. Everyone's been in the situation where they flop top pair/weak kicker. Whether from the blinds, EP, MP, or LP. It's been happening to me alot, so I figured I'd ask some opinions about it. I know that if there's alot of action, you should muck it, but against 2 or fewer opponents would be my main concern. I'm assuming that would require a good understanding/read of your opponents.

So... once again, I apologize if I read your reply wrong, and I apologize for the caps. I understand that everyone is here for help and discussion. Maybe I should figure out how to post so that my posts either aren't vague or taken in the wrong way. Any tips for that?

[TJD]

It is difficult to get firm replies to a theoretical question which is what makes it fun /images/graemlins/smile.gif

As the local in Cornwall (England) is supposd to have said when asked for directions, "Oh no! You don't go there from here"

That is the problem about having K7s so early in the hand.

Let's assume you misclicked and called preflop by accident. If UTG bets out he can have it! How can I possibly know what to do here? Calling or raising is a pure guess, as is folding. Since I will never be confident here, I will only ever win a small pot and stand to lose bets to all sorts of UTG hands or even the 3rd player lying doggo.

UTG has "laid claim" to the pot with his bet and I am really in no position to argue with conviction.

From the blinds I bet. Now, I lay claim to the pot; let's see what develops.

From last position, I might raise /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Isn't this game hard? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Trevor