2 Hands for Review

[hockey1]

I'm new to the table. Seems like pretty standard Party 2/4:

HAND 1

I'm dealt K /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in MP. EP limper to me, I limp (should I have raised if I'm going to play this at all?). CO, button, and both blinds call.

Flop: T /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif BB bets, everybody calls (I was playing my insight straight draw -- should I have folded given the 5 players left to act behind me?). 3 callers behind me.

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. So I pick up an open-ended straight draw. BB checks (?). EP checks. I bet (good or bad idea?). CO, BB, and EP call.

River: K /images/graemlins/club.gif. checked to me. What should I do?


HAND 2:

I'm dealt KK in MP. One limper to me, I raise. LP, button, SB, and limper all call.

Flop: 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Check, check, I bet, only LP and button call.

Turn: A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I bet, LP calls, button folds.

River: 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Ok, that sucks. I check (good or bad?). LP bets. What should I do?

Results later

[dwt95]

Hand 1
K/J off out of position gets a fold from me. Though I might limp in if table is loose-passive hoping to flop a monster. If I didn't flop a monster, I'd lay it down to any bet after this flop b/c no one fold an ace at 2/4 party and you are now playing from behind.

Now specifically this hand.
Once I'm in it, I probably would have bet representing that Ace, but thing is, no one at party 2/4 will lay down a pair of aces and when you got 3 callers behind you, at least one of them has it.

Turn
I might bet here as well but I'd probably check and hope the next to act bets so I could finish the action. Check and fold is probably your best bet here.

River
Check and fold to any bet, unless you can finish it and you are heads up. If that happened I'd probably call and make him show me that ace.

[dwt95]

Hand 2
I probably do everything you do here. The river i would probably check-call and watch him turn over that ace or 2 spades.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
K/J off out of position gets a fold from me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. It gets a fold from me, too.

[ QUOTE ]
Though I might limp in if table is loose-passive hoping to flop a monster. If I didn't flop a monster, I'd lay it down to any bet after this flop b/c no one fold an ace at 2/4 party and you are now playing from behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

Um, okay, but...

[ QUOTE ]
Now specifically this hand.
Once I'm in it, I probably would have bet representing that Ace, but thing is, no one at party 2/4 will lay down a pair of aces and when you got 3 callers behind you, at least one of them has it.


[/ QUOTE ]

What about this specific hand makes you want to represent the ace?

[ QUOTE ]
Turn
I might bet here as well but I'd probably check and hope the next to act bets so I could finish the action. Check and fold is probably your best bet here.



[/ QUOTE ]

It is my opinion that betting the turn is the only thing the poster did correctly on this hand.

Aces McGee

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
It is my opinion that betting the turn is the only thing the poster did correctly on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The poster is of that opinion too.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm dealt K J in MP. EP limper to me, I limp (should I have raised if I'm going to play this at all?).

[/ QUOTE ]

KJo is trouble on a table that continues to have family pots, especially in earlier position. You should fold this hand in multiway games, even for one bet. However, if there is an EP weak-limper and all fold to you in the CO or better, raise with it.

[ QUOTE ]
(I was playing my insight straight draw -- should I have folded given the 5 players left to act behind me?). 3 callers behind me.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of those tricky implied odd situations that I'm no good at explaining. I hope holms is around to answer this one. However, I don't like the flop call. With this many to the flop there is a good chance the Ace is out there and I would fold this on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
BB checks (?). EP checks. I bet (good or bad idea?). CO, BB, and EP call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the bet.


[ QUOTE ]
River: K . checked to me. What should I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, that sucks. I check (good or bad?). LP bets. What should I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

The Ace sucked too. There are great chances that you are beat here. Depending on the the type of player LP is, I'd probably call.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
K/J off out of position gets a fold from me. Though I might limp in if table is loose-passive hoping to flop a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

KJo in any position sucks when the pot is multiway, you'll be paying off better hands way more often than flopping a monster.

Welcome to the forum,
JoeTall

[dwt95]

On representing the ace, I am hoping to find out where it is.

Betting the turn here will probably drive off any non-ace, thus reducing the amount of callers. I want lots of callers when I'm on a draw. Also if you bet and it become heads-up and two bet, what do you do then?

[dwt95]

I agree, the key is to maximize your value when you do flop a monster. That's why most times i'd toss it.

The only time I wouldn't would be if I was pretty sure I could get cheap multi-way action.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
On representing the ace, I am hoping to find out where it is.



[/ QUOTE ]

The best way to find out where the ace is, in this situation, is to fold and watch the showdown to see who has it.

Failing that, I'd rather check and see who bets. If I bet and have several callers, I've learned almost nothing, except that a few people sorta like their hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the turn here will probably drive off any non-ace, thus reducing the amount of callers. I want lots of callers when I'm on a draw. Also if you bet and it become heads-up and two bet, what do you do then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that many non-aces that didn't fold on the flop are that likely to fold on the turn.

Aces McGee

[Nottom]

I really don't like it. BB probably has a crappy ace and is afraid of his kicker, if not one of the others likely does. No one is folding to the bet so as a semibluff its pretty worthless and you aren't getting enough to make it a worthwhile value bet, so I would just check-call the turn.

[Aces McGee]

It's not just a semibluff, though...he's adding to the pot while drawing to an open-ended straight.

Aces McGee

[dwt95]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that many non-aces that didn't fold on the flop are that likely to fold on the turn.

Aces McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. I find that most drawers in low limit games will fold the turn bet after calling the flop bet.

All this being said, I didn't realize that there was only 1 more to act after him on the turn so I probably would have bet it as well and hoped that the person behind didn't two-bet it and drive off the other player.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not just a semibluff, though...he's adding to the pot while drawing to an open-ended straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

and with only 3 callers its not a good bet if he thinks there is an Ace out there since hes only going to hit his draw a bit more than 1 in 6 times.

[Aces McGee]

You've got me thinking. I'd be interested in hearing what other old hands have to say.

Aces McGee

[hockey1]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. Here are the results:

Hand 1:

First, let me just say that I'm a little surprised everyone assumed somebody had an A. Sure, it's possible, but nobody's shown any strength at all in this hand. That's why I bet the river. Only EP called. He showed his pocket pair of queens and I took the pot.

HAND2:

I called. LP showed QTo for a pair of tens and my kings held up.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
First, let me just say that I'm a little surprised everyone assumed somebody had an A.

[/ QUOTE ]

You yourself evidently thought this:

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: T 9 A BB bets, everybody calls (I was playing my insight straight draw -- should I have folded given the 5 players left to act behind me?).

[/ QUOTE ]

Otherwise you wouldn't have been just playing your inside straight draw.

If you bet the river, then you clearly didn't buy that anyone had an ace, but the tone of your original post certainly hinted that you weren't so sure.

Aces McGee

[hockey1]

At that point -- second to act on the flop -- I wasn't about to count three Ks as outs. After the flop betting and turn betting, though, I thought there was a pretty decent chance that my pair of kings was good.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
The only time I wouldn't would be if I was pretty sure I could get cheap multi-way action.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where you SHOULD be folding it. Hands like, KJo, KTo, QJo, QTo, JTo should be folded, even for 1 bet in multiway action. It will take time but after realizing how much money your are losing when your trapped to a flop with such hands, you'll learn to fold it for 1 bet, preflop.

Peace,
JoeTall

[JTG51]

Joe,

Are you advocating folding KJo on the button after a bunch of limpers?

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you advocating folding KJo on the button after a bunch of limpers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, to the newbie. I play nearly all of them on the button, but after limpers, we all know how badly they play in LMP or earlier.

I don't play QTo, nor KTo there, but JTo, QJo and KJo I'll play at the right table.

You're still a wimp,
JT

[JTG51]

Joe, I'm confused.

On the flop you say:


[ QUOTE ]
With this many to the flop there is a good chance the Ace is out there and I would fold this on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then on the turn you say:

[ QUOTE ]
I like the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's too good a chance someone has top pair to call the flop for a gutshot (I'm not sure what one has to do with the other anwyay) but then it's ok to semibluff bet the turn into 6 players? How often do you think a turn bet is going to win this pot, especially given that you already estimated that there's a good chance someone has an Ace?

[dwt95]

the key to your advice here is the assumption that i'll be trapped to a flop, lack discipline and chase right?

[JTG51]

Yes, to the newbie.

So your advice is for new players to willfully make errors?

Maybe you should include a disclaimer in your advice that says, "This is bad advice, it will cost you money." /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Homer]

Hand 1

Preflop - Limping with KJo is fine, generally speaking. If EP limper is tight, I might fold. If the EP limper is loose, but the rest of the table is tight I'll raise to isolate.

Flop - You're getting immediate odds of 8:1 with 3 players left to act behind you. If these players are passive, then you have an easy call (especially since the flop is rainbow). If they are aggressive, then you have a more difficult decision and should consider folding.

Turn - BETTING HERE IS HORRIBLE. You are against 5 opponents, so your bet has no chance to take down the pot immediately. Also, you won't be getting value on the bet most likely, as even if all 8 straight outs are clean and will give you the entire pot, you are still 4.5:1 against hitting on the river and thus need all 5 opponents to call to make your bet have value. Factor in the chances of one of the players behind you raising and of not all your outs being clean (a 7 may cause you to chop, 7h or Qh may give someone else a straight), and you can see that your bet cannot be for value.

River - I would check behind against three opponents, especially since it appears that BB might have a weak Ace, and is wussing out since so many players called his bets. If he was betting the flop on the come, he would have gotten there on the turn and would have kept betting. So, you know he most likely wasn't betting a draw (unless he was betting J8 or 87).


Hand 2

Call the river bet. Personally, I would have bet the river unless I knew my opponent was weak-tight and would check behind on the river with an Ace. Online, most players will bet the river with an Ace, so you should bet yourself and make sure they pay when they have a hand worse than yours. This is especially true since you have an easy fold to a raise.

-- Homer

[Homer]

This is one of those tricky implied odd situations that I'm no good at explaining. I hope holms is around to answer this one. However, I don't like the flop call. With this many to the flop there is a good chance the Ace is out there and I would fold this on the flop.

Yo Joe, the flop decision is interesting, but it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not he suspects his opponent has an Ace. If he's continuing with the hand, it's primarily for the inside straight draw (if he hits runner-runner two-pair or trips it's gravy).

He's getting immediate pot odds of 8:1 to call, but he isn't closing the action, as there are 3 opponents left to act. If the opponents yet to act are passive, he should certainly call. If one or more of them is aggressive, he has a tougher decision. If he calls, then a late position player raises, he's only going to be getting 5:1 or so on the call, as he is effectively calling two bets cold. On the plus side, his implied odds are greater than normal, as he will get tons of action from anyone with a bare J. I think this is a call unless you expect one of the players behind you to raise close to 100% of the time.

FWIW, I would call here closing the action getting 5:1 or 6:1. This may sound low, but remember the board is rainbow and your implied odds are greater than usual.

-- Homer

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
) but then it's ok to semibluff bet the turn into 6 players?

[/ QUOTE ]

The initial better checked, it was checked to him AND he improved on the turn, I LIKE THE BET, simple as that.

Do you think responding to my posts is going to change the Yanks luck? No word from you since you put the ban on and now this, eh? Wimp.

Peace,
JT

[Homer]

The initial better checked, it was checked to him AND he improved on the turn, I LIKE THE BET, simple as that.

But Joe, it's not as simple as "I like the bet". Read my post. I can't see a good reason to bet. It won't work as a semi-bluff, he's not cleaning up his pair outs (by getting top-pair of Aces to fold), and he's not getting value.

What legitimate reason does he have to bet?

-- Homer

[JTG51]

Do you think responding to my posts is going to change the Yanks luck?

Aw damn, and here I thought it would.

No word from you since you put the ban on and now this, eh?

I've resonded to quite a few of your posts since then.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
So your advice is for new players to willfully make errors?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes this is exactly what I'm trying to say, you are a genius. It's all a master plan to get them to make mistakes so I make more money.

The hand is trouble for inexperienced players. I admit KJ is the one I'll say 'to play' but I know you know what I'm trying to say, you punk a$$ Yankee fan.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you should include a disclaimer in your advice that says, "This is bad advice, it will cost you money."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's 100% true for all of my 1100 posts, again one big master plan.

Wimp,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I've resonded to quite a few of your posts since then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, like 2. Fear the Sox.

Peace,
JT

[JTG51]

I'm just busting balls... Wait, that's you. I must just be mean.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I must just be mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you're way too much of a pu$$y to be mean.

Fu@k the Yankees,
JT

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

You were much nicer as Larry Joe Fish.

For the record, I am a Red Sox fan who hates "Yankees Suck" paraphenalia. The Yankees don't suck. In fact, they are the greatest, most successful, franchise in the history of US team sports. If they sucked, it would be meaningless to beat them. But they don't suck, they are an awesome force, and that's why when the Sox send them to an early tee time sometime in the next week, we will truly be able to celebrate.

After all, it's no big deal to beat a team that sucks. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[JTG51]

Yes, like 2.

That's a pretty good ratio since I've made like 3 total posts in that time period.

[Homer]

I had forgotten why I hadn't been around to post in a while. Thanks for reminding me guys...

[JTG51]

My correcting errors in replies to new players posts so that they don't get bad information caused you to cut back on posting? I'm certainly sorry about that, I'll try not to do it in the future.

[Homer]

Geesh, what crawled up your guys asses today? Obviously that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to all the BS arguing that takes place while meaningful poker-related posts go ignored. Why should someone take time to write a well-thought out post when it is certain to go unnoticed. I'm faily certain I'm not the only one who doesn't feel like exerting effort anymore.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
You were much nicer as Larry Joe Fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still the LJF. I just have to give the finger to JTG once in a while, plus I am at work and don't give my posts enough re-reads to see if I'm getting the point across clearly.

[ QUOTE ]
For the record, I am a Red Sox fan who hates "Yankees Suck" paraphenalia. The Yankees don't suck. In fact, they are the greatest, most successful, franchise in the history of US team sports. If they sucked, it would be meaningless to beat them. But they don't suck, they are an awesome force, and that's why when the Sox send them to an early tee time sometime in the next week, we will truly be able to celebrate.

After all, it's no big deal to beat a team that sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said they suck? Sit in Fenway for 30+ games a year and trust me, I hate the stupid 'suck' thing too. I 100% agree with what you've said here. You forgot to say that Stienbrener is GOOD for baseball.

Fu@k the Yanks,
JT

[JTG51]

Obviously that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to all the BS arguing that takes place while meaningful poker-related posts go ignored.

I didn't think it was obvious since I thought I was talking about poker for the most part.

I'm faily certain I'm not the only one who doesn't feel like exerting effort anymore.

Of course you are certain of that since I've told you recently that I feel the same way.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I had forgotten why I hadn't been around to post in a while. Thanks for reminding me guys...

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, holms, I don't get it. Why?

[Homer]

Nobody talks poker around here anymore. It's all bad beats, side discussions, zoo/SS tourney, etc. I supppose there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not for me.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
But Joe, it's not as simple as "I like the bet".

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, holms I like the bet, it's poker, if you carry the right image at the right time you can make this play.

[ QUOTE ]
What legitimate reason does he have to bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

He may improve to the best hand, and he may get others to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
he's not getting value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand. The action in this hand leads me to bet. The BB bet out then checked (bluff/semi-bluff) The EP then checked. He's betting into lesser opponents, they may think he has a monster hand and was waiting to raise the turn if the BB bet again and he has outs to win.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody talks poker around here anymore. It's all bad beats, side discussions, zoo/SS tourney, etc. I supppose there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm glad you joined this thread, I think it's an intesting poker discussion. You are right about the quality of posts, I almost posted something in the News, views about 2+2 and quanity/quality.

Peace,
JT

[Homer]

Specifically, what are your reasons for betting?

- Do you believe that there is a chance of taking the hand down before showdown?

- Do you believe that a better hand will fold?

- Do you believe that there is "value" in the bet?

I can't understand why you think betting is best based on what you've said thus far.

-- Homer

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
He's getting immediate pot odds of 8:1 to call, but he isn't closing the action, as there are 3 opponents left to act. If the opponents yet to act are passive, he should certainly call. If one or more of them is aggressive, he has a tougher decision. If he calls, then a late position player raises, he's only going to be getting 5:1 or so on the call, as he is effectively calling two bets cold. On the plus side, his implied odds are greater than normal, as he will get tons of action from anyone with a bare J. I think this is a call unless you expect one of the players behind you to raise close to 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew you could explain it better.

[ QUOTE ]
I would call here closing the action getting 5:1 or 6:1. This may sound low, but remember the board is rainbow and your implied odds are greater than usual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I think it over some more, I'd call the flop to. I take my initial call back.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
betting is best

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, whoa, I never said it was 'best'. I just said that I liked the play. I thought the play is intesting and after some more thought I decided I like it.

[ QUOTE ]
- Do you believe that there is a chance of taking the hand down before showdown?

- Do you believe that a better hand will fold?

- Do you believe that there is "value" in the bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, maybe, yes.

No, these games are showdown games, we both know that.

Maybe, depending on your image and the type of players to act behind you, yes. (now I've been playing a ton of B&M as of late so my mind is geared diffently I guess)

Yes, he could improve to the best hand.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I've made like 3 total posts in that time period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, like where the f-k have you been? Keeping your tan?

[Homer]

Yes, he could improve to the best hand.

That's not what I mean by value. Just because someone might improve to the best hand doesn't mean that betting has value...

-- Homer

[Homer]

I forgot to add that if there is actually a chance that you could get a weak Ace to fold, that betting could certainly be best. However, I would be surprised if anyone would fold top-pair here.

-- Homer

[MaxPower]

I agree with you there. There have been a lot of these types of posts, plus posts that should really be on other forums.

There have been a lot of newbies on here recently, so that may be the reason.

I am making an effort to post more of my hands on here, so I would appreciate it if you and the other old hands/poobahs/carpaltunnels can respond to these and keep this forum going.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

You forgot to say that Stienbrener is GOOD for baseball.

Sorry.

Steinbrenner is good for baseball. Bud Selig is bad for baseball. /images/graemlins/wink.gif