3-Leggers

[Kevin J]

Sorry for the newbie questions.

I interpret Ciaffone as saying that it's Ok to play a "bunch" of high cards (such as, Ah,Ks,Jd,4c) in PLO. A friend of mine says, "Absolutely not!". You want ALL cards working for you in this game. He goes on to say that even if the 4 is suited with the king, the jack, and possibly even the ace, he folds without thinking twice about it. Again, ALL 4 cards working together.

I can't see questioning Ciaffone, but my friend's advice makes sense to me. If for no other reason, than I've just started playing this very complicated game and I can't be trusted to handle the inevitable marginal situations that stem from playing a trap hand. Of course, I understand that there are unique considerations such as position, steals, playing certain players, etc.

So I'm confused. Can you ever play a hand with a "dangler" in PLO? Thanks in advance for any advice.

[tewall]

Ciaffone doesn't say anything like what you're "interpreting". Please post a quote from the book which is causing your question. You're seriously misunderstanding something.

[crockpot]

i would limp in good position with this hand if you change the four to a heart. still, it is not a great hand.

your goal in PLO is to get one of the following two situations:

- flop the nuts with redraws against another nut hand
- flop a hand like set-over-set, flush-over-flush, straight-over-straight (although this one is not as big a deal)

so when you're evaluating your hand, look at how likely your hand is to give you one of these situations. AKJ4 suited to the ace isn't great, but it can give you several big straights, a nut flush, and a lucky flop can give you a big full house.

suited aces also play much better in passive games. you won't be bet out of the pot, and other flush draws may stay in because it's cheap, giving you a bigger payoff when you hit.

i recommend you step down from the $10-$25 game until you've reviewed these concepts a little more.

[Kevin J]

p.44 from Omaha Holdem Poker..

"A /images/graemlins/spade.gif k /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif Raise. A fistful of high cards should raise it up in any Ohama game to narrow the field.

This is one I probably don't fully understand. I'm sure it's playable due to the number of wrap-arounds you might make. Still, friend would say, it's not enough. There's danger in making a two pair like Queens over nines, etc. I'm pretty sure my friend throws this hand away from most positions.

p.45 from Omaha Holdem Poker
"K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Call. You have three good cards...

Now he does go on the say, that the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif is not useless and that this hand is borderline and that he would throw it away if his stacks were deep. Still, the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif seems like more of a dangler to me. It's doing nothing but possibly getting you to draw at a non-nut flush a good portion of the time.

He also gives examples later in the book in a section called Pot-limit Ohama Quiz: Of having A /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

There are other hands that seem questionable to me, but I understand that most of these have many wrap-around possibilities. Obviously, I'm confused. So if you can straighten me out, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

[Kevin J]

Thanks.

"i recommend you step down from the $10-$25 game until you've reviewed these concepts a little more. "

This might be the understatement of the year. Seriously, you're 100% right and I'm under no delusions about this game. It's WAY over my head. I plan on playing some PLO online for a while. Thanks again.

[tewall]

O.K. Thanks for posting these hands. I'll take a look at the book when I get home.

Without looking I can say I strongly suspect there are special circumstances for playing these hands (like you're in late position and everyone has folded to you, or defending the blinds, or something like that)

Ciaffone spends A LOT of time explaining the importance of having all 4 cards working together.

[tewall]

Say, Kevin, you might find this site interesting

http://pokerprofessor.homestead.com/links.html

[crockpot]

ciaffone does say that this section is designed for how he would play at limit Omaha rather than pot-limit, even though he does say his decision would be the same for most. i suspect that when he says he would toss the KQJ6 with deep money, he means he would do it in any plo game except as a short stack in a tournament to steal the blinds.

[tewall]

"The correct view is, 'A good Omaha hand has all four cards coordinate with each other.' p. 39 He goes on to explain.

"Sometimes a hand with only three working cards can be reasonably decent and worth playing. The best three card hands are those that have a fairly large pair in conjunction with a potential nut flush-draw."

Thanks for the hands you quoted. I'm interested in one in particular, #6 on p. 44.

[crockpot]

this point system is ridiculous. anyone who thinks a jack-high flush draw is worth half as much as an ace-high draw is welcome to sit in my game any time he wants.

i also like how 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is worth less than 8765o, and how JT98 or QJT9 offsuit or single suited is not even playable.

i really think that point counts are only useful for rank amateurs at this game who are just considering what to look for in a starting hand. the problem is one ciaffone points out: you would rather be in a quarter of the pots and win half of them than in a half of the pots and win a quarter of them.

[Kevin J]

I think you're right.

[Kevin J]

Thanks tewall. I'll take a look.

[tewall]

The anomolies you point out are interesting. I haven't looked at it closely, but the author points out that there is a high correspondence between the ranking system and how hands perform. I'm just saying what he said.

Of course nothing can take the place of sound judgement based on experience, but the point system can help someone just starting out to get an idea of what to be looking for.

[tewall]

I asked him (Ciaffone) about the first hand. (AKQ9 not suited). He said the 9 makes a JT wrap around possible and he might not call without it.

I think the hands you posted are borderline ones. If you follow your friends advice, and play a bit tighter than this, I don't think you can go wrong. Everyone's in agreement in general that you want hands where all 4 cards are working.