Pot-limit Omaha - Problem on the Turn

[Kevin J]

Pot-limit Omaha. $10 and $25 blinds with a bring-in option of $100.

UTG who is a weakish player, but not afraid to call some very big bets with marginal holdings, limped as did the cut-off. I made it $150 with Ad,Ah,Kc,Qc from the button. Blinds folded, early player called and the cut-off folded. Heads-up.

The flop came Qd,8s,7c. He checked, I bet $300 and he called.

The turn was a 9d. He checked.

What's my play? If you bet.. How much?

[Paul2432]

This questions cannot be answered without knowing the stack sizes. Also, how much have you been raising on the button before the flop? Can your opponent put you on a wide range of hands, or does your raise mean AAxx?

Anyway, assuming you have plenty of money left to bet, I would think you want to get to the show down as cheaply as possible. I would bet perhaps $750 with the intention of checking behind on the river. That is enough to deny most draws proper odds. If he check-raises or bets out on the river, then I would fold.

That said, I don't think trying to check it down and folding if your opponent bets the river is all that bad.

JMO, from a low limit on-line PLO player.

Paul

[Kevin J]

Sorry. I'm very much a novice PLO player. Don't ask what I was doing playing in this game. I just wanted to see what it was all about.

No, I hadn't been making a lot of raises. In fact, this was my first raise of the night. I had about 3k in chips and my opponent about 2k. I ended up making a $300 bet on the turn, and was told by a very good player that this was the WORST thing I could've done. Either make a good size bet (as you suggested) or check it, with checking being the preferrable play. In other words, he said exactly what you did. Thanks for the response.

[Paul2432]

It is a heckuva lot easier to come up with this stuff when you have plenty of time to think about it and it is not your money at stake. I have no idea what I would have done in real time.

What actually happened on the hand?

Paul

[Kevin J]

He called the $300 bet. The river was an off king. He checked and I checked behind. It turns out I got lucky. He had two pair (queens and eights) and I took it down with kings and queens. Now I started wondering if I missed a bet on the river? Earlier, I watched the same guy pay off a $600 bet on the river with a flush on board... He lost to two pair.

[Zag]

Wow! Was this real money? Or tournament dollars? Is the other player a billionaire, that he can afford to play this badly for these kind of stakes?

I agree with the comments that you should, against normal opponents, have either checked with plans to fold or made a larger bet. However, against this particular opponent -- who is clearly loose-passive, your action might have been just the right one. It kept him from betting the river, which would have been tough for you to call.

Any good players would either have bet out on the flop, if they sensed weakness, or just folded to your flop bet. Or probably not have called preflop, depending on what the rest of the hand was. Or, if they really had made it that far, would have check-raised you big on the turn and forced you to lay it down.

A bet on the river would have been terrible. Your hand is right in that range where nearly all worse hands will fold, and nearly all better hands will call (or raise), so a bet will usually only cost you money. In this case, it sounds like he would have called, but he probably would have played a non-nut straight the same way.

The bottom line is that I think he played it far worse than you did. If he is really this bad of a player, you can probably wait for better opportunities to put money in.

[Kevin J]

No, this was for real money and I'm not sure what his financial status is. I can only tell you that he figures to be slightly worse off this morning than before sitting down last night. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

And if I'm not real careful, this will also be the case with me in future PLO games as well.

[Ray Zee]

you had aces and thats all really by fourth street. time to look to give it up or get out cheap, not try to run him off.
you had position so giving up a free card isnt so bad here on fourth street, as the nine is a terrible card to come for you. you did fine and he did play poorly. against a good player you would never win this hand. aces in omaha isnt anything like aces in holdem. players that push aces after the flop without knowing what the opponent has do not last long in omaha pot limit.

[Kevin J]

Thanks Ray-

I know two aces are big in this game before the flop, but how big?

Someone raised $50 ($25 big blind) and got 3 callers. This time I had Ah,Ac,Jh,2h in the bb. I know I got a huge hand, but I was worried about getting multi-way action. I wanted to keep the pot small and just called for now. A friend is telling me I'm nuts for not raising the pot right there. Is this mandatory?

The flop came Js,4s,3d. I didn't feel good about betting into 3 players so I checked. The pre-flop raiser bet $300, everyone folded to me and I also folded. If I had the As it might have been a different story. Did I play this one poorly as well? Thanks.

[Ray Zee]

kevin, two ragged aces range between maybe two to one-- to even money depending on the opponent's hand headup. so you see out of position with pot limit you arent in such great shape.
now if you are pretty sure you can get it raised and get allin then its a go, providing there arent clues that your hand may be dead. but still a bad way to play as too often you run into multiple players that have hands that you dont want to play against in a big pot.

[Guy McSucker]

Disclaimer: I have never played for stakes like these. Maybe one tenth the size. And I'm rubbish. Anyway.

We really need to know how much money you and everyone else was playing to analyse these hands.

AAJ2 with three hearts is not a huge hand by any means. On most aceless flops you will be in lots of trouble, especially out of position. If you can get most of your chips in with a reraise, then it's okay to do so, but you won't win the pot a huge amount of the time. Otherwise, just call and look for some help from the flop.

Check-fold with that raggedy flop seems okay to me. On the other hand, the flop is so raggedy it doesn't look like your opponent will have much. Unless he has JJ in the hole you are most likely winning. Once everybody else folds, it might be reasonable to reraise him, but I wouldn't do it very much. Maybe experts would, I dunno. Ray?

Guy.

[crockpot]

[ QUOTE ]
players that push aces after the flop without knowing what the opponent has do not last long in omaha pot limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

i beg to differ. the ones i sit with always bemoan their bad luck and immediately buy back in, then proceed to tilt away their money while still reeling from their "bad beat".

and people wonder why i love this game.