Lost a Huge Pot, Opinions

[Redhotman]

Holding QcQd in SB at a loose table.
5 Limp I raise, BB calls.
FLOP
As Qh 2h
I bet and three people call.

Turn
Th
I bet, call, call, Raise. Everyone calls. I am almost certain I am against a Flush. Is my play to re-raise here?

River
3c
Check, Call and he turns over the Nut-Flush.

Opinions of this hand?

[Zez]

Pre-flop and flop fine. Don't see what re-raising the turn gets you. If you're confident in your read of your opponent, why call the river?

[brian0729]

You might want to go for check raise on the flop that being said, cap the turn everytime, when you make a house on the river the flush is toast. Play the set fast they either win or lose a ton, its good there winners most times.

[brian0729]

Also a couple of things a reraise forces the ones to act behind to pay more bets and you may have the best hand and if not you have a chance to make a monster. Plus dont automatically put the raiser on the flush, he could very well have AT, in this hand stay aggresive.

[Ed Miller]

My opinion is that it sucks to be you.

[gonores]

I won't always re-raise the turn here, but I normally will. Sometimes, I will just call to try to keep the other two callers in.

[Ed Miller]

Wow.. the advice in this thread is poor. If you are almost sure you are against a flush, then you should play exactly as you did.

[squiffy]

Yes, I am a newbie, but I think kong is right. You should probably jam the flop, with two cards to come.

But at the turn, you only have about 9 outs out of 45 or so. So you will win only about 20% of the time or 1 in five times. For every bet or raise you are only getting 1 or 2 bets, especially if the others drop out. So you are losing money on the turn and river bets and raises.

Once he raises and you are sure he has the flush, you have to check and call.

I would have a hard time dropping my set, but against a tight player that may be the smart move.

[GuyOnTilt]

I've read a lot of funny, useless posts on this forum, but this is the first one from you MK! (PS. You actually made me laugh out loud /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

[slavic]

Hold on reraising the turn only works for you if your opponent is of the ilk that he might semi-bluff. Otherwise you played it fine.

In heads up play it's a little different. If you have position and get checkraised on the turn, you can 3 bet and see how the player reacts. If he reraises, pitch it, if he folds bonus, if he calls then you will likely get a free showdown. If he calls and bets into you, then you can pitch it. Not too many downsides.

With a set I'm less apt to do this because I have a ton of outs headed to the river. If the board pairs I'm going to get 2 or 3 bets in anyway. If it doesn't I want to see a showdown in case 2 pair got a little over anxious.

In general I have a hard time folding a set. I've done it but it wasn't easy.

[Jezebel]

I would check/call the turn. Then Check/raise the river if I improved or check/call if I didn't improve. I think this is a textbook example of checking the turn when you have outs. Thoughts?

[hutz]

In heads up play it's a little different. If you have position and get checkraised on the turn, you can 3 bet and see how the player reacts. If he reraises, pitch it . . . .

You don't really mean this, do you? I can't imagine laying down a set for one more bet in this situation unless your lone opponent shows you a set of aces.

[crockpot]

if you are almost certain you are against a flush, why would you reraise here? it won't get a flush to fold. what it will do is get out the people in between you and the raiser, so you are putting in more money and getting fewer callers, giving you much worse odds when you are probably drawing.

you have to call on the river with the size of the pot, even though you don't like it.

on the flop, depending on the aggressiveness of the table i might have considered a check raise. a lot of people will go into flat call mode with any ace against a preflop raiser but will bet if it is checked to them, and others will raise you on the flop giving you a chance to three bet. one factor is that a lot of hands give the opponents a possible gutshot draw here, so you do not want to give them proper odds to chase it.

[chesspain]

I think you played it fine...sometimes you just have to pay 'em /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I won't always re-raise the turn here, but I normally will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have position and get checkraised on the turn, you can 3 bet and see how the player reacts. If he reraises, pitch it

[/ QUOTE ]
This is fine HU strategy when you don't have much of a hand, not when you have a big hand + lots of outs.

[ QUOTE ]
If he calls and bets into you, then you can pitch it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, fine if you have little, but this is terrible HU strategy w/ big hands. If I were to 3-bet in this situation, get called, then get bet into on the river, I'd never fold. My decision would be whether to call or raise.

[ QUOTE ]
With a set I'm less apt to do this because I have a ton of outs headed to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
3-betting is fine, but you shouldn't be less apt to fold to a 4-bet w/ a set - you should pretty much never fold it.

[ QUOTE ]

In general I have a hard time folding a set. I've done it but it wasn't easy.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope you haven't folded a set for one bet on the turn.

[Lost Wages]

If you're confident in your read of your opponent, why call the river?

There is confidence and then there is x-ray vision /images/graemlins/cool.gif. He is getting 16:1 on his river call which means he only has to be wrong 6% of the time for calling to show a profit.

Lost Wages

[Barry]

Add me to the list of folks that said you played it fine. The turn 3-bet is bad for all the reasons mentioned by others.

However, I don't understand the advice to go for a checkraise on the flop. This is exactly the kind of flop that you want when you flop a set. Bet out the flop and hope that someone that has an A raises. They will do it frequently. In fact I'm somewhat surprised that the fellow with the Ax /images/graemlins/heart.gif didn't raise the flop. It was a beautiful one for him.

[CrackerZack]

Don't run into flushes when you flop a set. Flush is better than set. Its even worse in big pots.

[gonores]

This may just be short-to-midterm memory talking to me here, but I've been shown AT or QT a smaller set here too many times in this situation to pass this up, especially if this game was at Party (my best guess would be about 30-40% of the time). Furthermore, you can exact an extra bet or two out of the two players in the middle. If you get 4-bet, you can be sure he has the flush.

Now that you have asked me this, though, I'm going to be thinking about all through my next class. I hope you're happy that I won't get anything out of my sales management lecture now /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Doug

[brian0729]

I am totally confused. I thought this was easy when I first read the post. I was one of the first to post about it. This seems like a no brianer raise to me. I need some help because I dont understand the call here at all. You have a huge hand pre flop, you get a great flop and bet out again I would have check raised but betting seems to be fine with most. you get nothing but callers (why the villian doesnt raise here with TP and a nut draw is a little bizarre). The flush comes on the turn our hero isnt happy but I dont think he should be discouraged. You have 10 outs to make your house by the river or could get the case queen. You bet he raises, there is no reason to think he has two hearts. He could have two pair or the A of hearts, but you dont find anything out by becomming a calling station at this point, if you 3bet and he caps then you have an easy check call on the river if you dont fill. If the villian would have capped the flop then raised you after you bet out on the turn I could see calling the rest of the way. I have thought about this since MK said the advice in thread was poor. I am still thinking about it and I cant see that calling gets you anything positive. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[klrpdx]

Yeah, but when the typical passive player who hasn't shown aggression the entire session suddenly raises you in this situation, you're going to be giving him your river bet 100% of the time.

I'm not saying never call the river -- most of the time you probably are for the reason you state, but when you have a good read on a player, you should use it.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't run into flushes when you flop a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

This advice is OK, but not the best advice. Better advice is "pair the board when you flop a set and run into a flush."

[Redhotman]

I was almost sure he had the flush. But like the others say, there is always the posibility of him betting a lower set or two pair or god knows what else.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
This may just be short-to-midterm memory talking to me here, but I've been shown AT or QT a smaller set here too many times in this situation to pass this up

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, a lot of guys will raise here w/ hands that you beat. But if he's ahead, you'll be putting in two more bets and often will lose the guys in the middle. If you just call, you'll often get one turn bet each from the two callers in the middle w/ a wide range of hands. So, even if you're in the lead, it's often more profitable to just call.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have check raised but betting seems to be fine with most.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like your thinking here is "big hand, I should checkraise!" You should also be thinking about other things like "Where is a bet likely to come from?" and "Do I want to build a pot or knock people out w/ my hand?"

[ QUOTE ]
You bet he raises, there is no reason to think he has two hearts.

[/ QUOTE ]
He called a two-flush flop and raised after a bet and two callers when the flush card came. If you're not thinking that there's a good chance your opponent has a flush w/ betting sequences like this, you need to seriously rethink your handreading.

[ QUOTE ]
but you dont find anything out by becomming a calling station at this point

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising to "find stuff out" is a highly overrated reason.

[ QUOTE ]
I am still thinking about it and I cant see that calling gets you anything positive. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the thread again and think some more. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ajizzle]

Your 4th street play is correct. Like Sklansky says in HPFAP, in the section of 4th St concepts, you have to check the hands with outs, and the bet the hands that, if already beat, have no outs. With a set here, you have 9 outs on the river to fill your boat, and the right play is to simply call the turn and check/call the river, no matter what comes.

[Redhotman]

[ QUOTE ]
Your 4th street play is correct. Like Sklansky says in HPFAP, in the section of 4th St concepts, you have to check the hands with outs, and the bet the hands that, if already beat, have no outs. With a set here, you have 9 outs on the river to fill your boat, and the right play is to simply call the turn and check/call the river, no matter what comes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice reference, Very true.

[me454555]

Why check raise the flop? With 2 hearts on the board and a gut shot strait, I'd be more worried about giving away a free card if it gets checked around than the extra flop bet I could potentially make.

[brian0729]

[ QUOTE ]
Read the thread again and think some more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. I did and still am. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like your thinking here is "big hand, I should checkraise!" You should also be thinking about other things like "Where is a bet likely to come from?" and "Do I want to build a pot or knock people out w/ my hand?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right. I want to check raise most of my sets, but as I read this I see that betting might be a better option. What I am not sure of is it to hopefully three bet somebody or because your hand although good is vulnerable or something I am still missing?

[ QUOTE ]
He called a two-flush flop and raised after a bet and two callers when the flush card came. If you're not thinking that there's a good chance your opponent has a flush w/ betting sequences like this, you need to seriously rethink your handreading.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, this looks like a flush.

Ok, I understand better now. Calling on the turn maybe allows you to get one or two bets from the callers plus atleast two more from the turn raiser if you fill. If you raise and lose the callers you are probably on getting two from the turn raiser if you fill. Am I anywhere close now?