A lesson in how not to play PLO against weak opposition.

[Acesover8s]

Party $1-2 PLO game, 1 player here I have played with on the stars 2-4 game, the rest appear to be fishy-wishy. Table is agressive preflop and weak postflop. I am getting nothing in the way of cards and am down to $89.

4 limpers to me and I limp with 7dTdQhAh. 1 limper behind me.

Flop comes 789 with two clubs and one heart. It goes check, check to player 2 before me, who min-bets $2. Everyone calls.

Turn is a 6 of hearts, giving me the second nut straight and the nut heart redraw. Betting pattern is the same as before, I raise the min-bet to $20, figuring if someone is slowplaying the nuts they'll reraise right here and I can let it go, but I also need to protect my fragile little straight here. Get two callers prior to me.

River pairs the 6. Checked to me, I wise up and check back. First player shows TJ for the flopped (and never bet) nut straight.

This is why I lose on this site, this is why it is no fun to play there, but my grandmother could make $500 a night playing like a sissy there.

[crockpot]

one of my roommates switched from party tourneys to stars for awhile because he was willing to give up EV to sit at a table with people who were playing correctly. you may want to try that for PLO if you value not having to play like a sissy.

by the way, i definitely make the sissy flat call here. protecting your straight is one thing, but i don't want to give up my chance at ten nut outs by getting reraised. you might even encourage someone to draw at a lower heart flush. plus, you are likely to be splitting the pot here unless you think a ten high straight will fold to your raise. (i might make this play against competent opposition for that reason, but party is party.)

[Ray Zee]

i dont get the post. you lost because you played horribly. you maybe shouldnt have even called the bring in. but certainly should have folded on the flop as you had only three jacks to give you a hand. then you caught a great card which looked good but really only gave you a draw. then you raised it and got lucky he didnt reraise you. and your resoning that you would now dump it if you got reraised was just the reason for not raising in the first place.
you are right though and better players may have saved you some money on this particular hand, but would take away much more on others if you do this stuff.
sorry to be hard on you but it seems like you need a slap in the face to wake you up. if i am wrong sorry.

[Acesover8s]

As much as I respect your posts I think you're wrong on a few points. The preflop call is perhaps debatable, so I won't argue that.

On the flop, you are correct, I am drawing to a 3-outer. I am required to call $2 with $20ish in the pot, and the likelihood of picking up more callers. This already gives me almost proper odds, not to mention the implied odds. In this game, if someone is slowplaying the Ten-Jack they are going to pay me off even if I hit my miracle. In addition I do have backdoor outs.

On the turn there is no reason to think that I am behind, unless I put someone on a ridiculous slowplay. If I had reason to think I was ahead I had every reason to protect my hand. I find it hard to believe that if you were in this hand you would not think you were ahead, or at least splitting. I personally do not wait for the nuts with no card to come to put in some chips.

There has been entirely too much said on this site about Omaha being a game of playing for the nuts only. In a tight tough game, I welcome nut-peddlers, although I will be the first to admit, I lose frequently to slowplayers.

[Acesover8s]

I apppreciate and understand your comments. I got my start playing 5-10 PLO live, in one of the most aggressive games I have seen. Pseudo-mandatory straddle, usually cost you between $40-$120 to see the flop. Lots of gamblers, and to stay alive you had to learn to call with your jack high flush.

Then I moved to the Pokerstars games where I broke even at the .10-.25 and .25-.50 games, buy have done extremely well in the 2-4 and 1-2 games. Something to do with being able to read hands easier.

PLO is in my opinion, the most exciting game of poker out there, but the style that takes the money in these games will drive you to drink (more, in my case.)

[tewall]

I was thinking some of the things you wrote. I hope he responds to clarify. In particular, I wonder if the reason he said not to call on the flop was due to the possibility you might get check-raised. Given your backdoor draw is to the nut flush, it seems to me you would have odds to call if you knew you wouldn't get check-raised. If it's likely you'll get check-raised, then I think a fold's in order.

The raise on the turn is interesting. I've been burned by the same sort of thing. Giving the opponent credit for a different hand than they actually have because they play it differently than I would. This can happen against a good player, of course, who is trying to fool you, or against a bad player who makes a deceptive play just out of stupidity.

[Graham]

Don't worry, I've been slapped by Ray before too. It's ok /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

I maybe play a wee bit too tight sometimes for the Party games, cos there's so much to be won postflop, but I may not have called preflop here. If it's nothng but limpers to the flops, then I might have gone for it with your hand. I think Ray hasn't really checked out the absurd play at online PLO games, so is missing the meaning of getting a min bet and 2 callers before you on a flop of 789 (...ie, it means absolutely nothing at a Party table!). However...

Re the flop: it's 2-tone, only one of your suit. You wanna keep your variance down? Perhaps time to muck. You still have a long way to go to win money at the river. Just 3 nut outs - that will then still need to hold up - and a backdoor flush. Even for the min bet and dreams of implied odds, the bargain price may not justify it.

Re the turn: Shoulda let your granny play the turn (or crocksucker, if yer gran's too busy making the tea).

If you read Ray's post, I think he's also saying you shoulda played the whole hand to that point like a sissy. Please don't think we're harsh; you did say it was a lesson in how not to play, didn't you... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

jmho

G

[Kevin J]

I am a 20-40 limit hold'em player just delving into the world of PLO, so please go easy on me if this is an incredibly stupid question. But can someone explain why Acesover8s must fold a double nut draw on the turn if he's raised? I understand that it's probably correct to fold a nut straight for example, against multiple opponents who might have the same straight with re-draws. I can also understand why you wouldn't want to open yourself up to a re-raise on the turn. But why would you have to fold a double nut (any jack and non-paired heart) draw here assuming your opponent(s) are deep enough to pay you off nicely?

[crockpot]

i think our "he must fold" sentiments are directed mainly to the possibility that he must fold if he raises to $20 and someone reraises the pot. here, there will be almost no money left to bet on the river if someone raises, and with only ten outs he is not getting 2:1.

even if there is some money left to bet, ten nut outs is pretty marginal for a pot-size call. i would probably set the cutoff at about 13.

by the way, my website has a 'starting out in pot limit omaha' section if you're looking for some winning ideas for fairly soft online games.

[Zag]

I don't think anyone is saying that he should fold on the turn (though a fold on the flop is, I think, called for). They are saying that he should not have raised. The big problem with a raise there is that a reraise will ruin his odds to draw at the flush, which is what he would really like to make.

On the other hand, if I knew that there would be two callers and no reraise, I would be glad to raise with that hand on the turn (non-nut straight in hand and 10 outs to the nuts). The good thing about a raise there is that if the flush does come, you can probably get a call from someone with a lesser flush, because he has put you on the straight.

Note that, if he is check-raised on the turn, you can certainly reduce his count of outs by one, because it is by someone who holds the nut flush right now.

[Zag]

err, nut straight, I mean. (on the last line)