A good night -vs- a bad beat

[KingToad]

I playing at party $25 NL.

I have $150, one other (the caller) has $145, everyone else $10 - $30.

I am dealt KK on the button, 6 limpers, I raise to $4, 2 call. Pot at $15.

Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

checked to me I bet $15, one fold, one call

Turn: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

He checks, I bet $15, he calls

River 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

He checks I bet $15, he calls


He ended up playing A7, to take the $105.

Did I play this poorly? Looking at it now I should have bet more on the flop? Would $30 been better, or was he calling anyway. Afterwards I commented wow, A7. He said the Ace is what kept him in.

[Centrist]

I'm going to reply not because I know the answer, but because I want to check my answer against the folks here who know what they're doing.

First, I think you're lucky he didn't raise on the river. Both of you were deep, and he could have cost you much more than he did.

Second, he's obviously lousy -- his calls on the flop and turn are pretty crazy.

Third, to address your actual question, when I'm holding a premium hand in late position, with lots of limpers (or perhaps some small raises), I think it's a good idea to substantially overbet the pot -- maybe 1.5 x the pot or a bit more. Bet an amount that looks "big" to the table.

When you're sitting in that late position, with money in the pot in front of you, you can force the table to make choices nearly all of which are good for you:

1. They can give you the pot right there.

2. More likely, one person will call you. And there's a better chance, with your "big" bet, that the one who calls has some kind of "legit" hand -- something like a smaller pair or AK or AQ. Hands they think they're "supposed" to play no matter what.

3. Get called by one of those hands, and you have a pretty good idea where you stand on the flop. If an A appears, you're in trouble. If not, you probably have much-the-best of it and can go ahead and bet the pot.

[Centrist]

FYI -- I actually happened to be thinking about this general situation because it happened to me on my "biggest" hand last night.

I've been playing Party's $50 tables for the past couple weeks and having quite a good luck streak. I haven't lost a single all-in bet since moving to the $50 level.

So, last night, after playing two $50 tables for quite a while and having nothing happen ... after about 300 hands or so of nothing ... I decide to try a juicy looking $100 table before quitting.

First time at a $100 table. I fold for a couple rounds and it's about my 30th hand or so when I'm on the big blind and see KK.

Oddly, while this is a fairly loose table, this is the first time I've seen virtually *everyone* get into a hand. Bunch of limpers in, and then someone in second to last position raises the $2 blind to $4. And then last position and the small blind call.

I count a little over $20 in the pot at this point. I make it $30 to go.

Guy in middle position calls ... followed by late position.

I'm surprised to have two callers. Then the flop comes something like 4, 4, 2.

Ok, so I strongly suspect nobody has a 4, and don't care if anyone has a two. And I didn't get reraised pre-flop, so nobody has AA.

The pot's about $100. And I push my remaining $70 in.

Surprise, surprise -- two callers.

One of them (late position guy) had JJ. The other didn't show. And I triple up.

Which leads to the question -- why do you call a really big pre-flop raise with JJ? Well, because it's one of those "really good" hands you're just *supposed* to play.

And the other guy had maybe AK or AQ, right?

[tewall]

You're betting the same amount, $15, each time, even though the pot keeps getting bigger. Why's that?

You need to make a bigger bet on the turn. He didn't make a bad call on the turn given your small bet.

I don't understand the river action for either one of you. You did well not to lose more.

[Ulysses]

Pre-flop, consider raising more.

Flop, fine, but you can bet more.

Turn, you have to bet more. You're giving him great odds to outdraw you w/ tons of hands.

River, bet more or check behind. You got lucky that he didn't checkraise you here.

Both of you played this pretty poorly.

[KingToad]

Thanks for the reply. I knew I played this poorly. I thought the flop bet of $15 was ok (pot size). I need to work on my reading ability when going H2H. I'm a little short on understanding certain odds. If I bet too much on the flop is there a point where he "has" to call because of pot size, etc.. I have had this happen quite a few times where I have AJ, and the flop is AJ8 (2 suited). Someone amkes a pot size bet of $3 with 2 callers and I raise to $10 or so. most of the time somone has an Ax, J8, or 4 flush. Would an overbet (or pot size by the time it's gets to me) be right?

[drudman]

That's about how much I would normally raise preflop so that seems good.

Betting the pot on the flop sounds about right to me as well... and then it goes wrong... I would push it right there on the turn. If you don't, I would just check the river fearing that he is slowplaying a set or something, trying to "have the discipline to check his man all the way down".

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply. I knew I played this poorly. I thought the flop bet of $15 was ok (pot size).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, it's fine. In these games, people will make incorrect calls a lot, so you can often get away w/ betting bigger and still get called.

[ QUOTE ]
If I bet too much on the flop is there a point where he "has" to call because of pot size, etc..

[/ QUOTE ]

Your thinking is backwards here. When you bet small, someone has more reason to call, because the amount they have to call is small in relation to the total amount of money in the pot. When you bet big, they are making a mistake calling w/ those same hands. This is a very, very basic beginner concept and it's unlikely you'll win at poker with this level of understanding. You should consider looking at some threads in Small Stakes and Beginner's forums about recommended books, etc. for beginning players.

[ QUOTE ]
I have had this happen quite a few times where I have AJ, and the flop is AJ8 (2 suited). Someone amkes a pot size bet of $3 with 2 callers and I raise to $10 or so. most of the time somone has an Ax, J8, or 4 flush. Would an overbet (or pot size by the time it's gets to me) be right?

[/ QUOTE ]

With a very good (top two) but vulnerable (to flushes, straights, etc.) hand like this, a big bet (pot or overbet) is very right. You'll get called by hands that are drawing very thin (like smaller two pair) and also get calls from drawing hands like 4 flushes. You need to charge those guys to draw in situations like this to make up for the times they make their draws.