Am I too tight?

[Brian]

Hey guys,

I've only got about 8,000 hands in Poker Tracker, but I'd say that they pretty accurately describe the way the past 20,000 hands or so have gone. That being said, here's my problem:

I am seeing only %12 of Flops when I'm not in a Blind. Including the Blinds, I am seeing 17% of Flops, but from what I've heard most players see the Flop well over 20% of the time. Therefore, I can only conclude that my pre-Flop hand selection is a bit too tight. I am going to list several pre-Flop hands/positions where I am folding; obviously it will vary from game to game whether or not you play these hands or not, but hopefully this will give a good idea of how loose/tight/average I am. As a sidenote, I play 3/6 on Party, and most of the games that I play in are aggressive. This impacts my starting hand standards somewhat; obviously I try as hard as possible to get into loose passive games, but most of the times, the best I can hope for is loose aggressive. I try to never play in tight games.

Hand #1: KJo. I always fold this hand to a raise (obviously), and I almost always fold it unless I am in late position. Too tight? Whether I just call or raise with it depends on the number of limpers.

Hand #2: QJo. I fold this hand in pretty much any position unless under very good circumstances (open raising it in late position).

Hand #3: ATo. Same as QJo.

Hand #4: Axs. In the games I play with, I am not usually able to see the Flop for 1 bet; therefore, I fold this type of hand unless in late position (less likely there will be a raise after me).

Hand #5: Pocket Pairs 22-66. I treat these the same as Axs. If I do happen to get into a game that is passive, I'll definitely play them, but recently most all of the games on Party 3-6 have been aggressive.

Hand #6: KTs, QTs, JTs. I fold these unless in late position.

Hand #7: KJs, QJs. I almost always play these two hands no matter what my position. Is this contradictory with the fact that I expect a raise from behind me about 50% of the time?

Hand #8: KQo, AJo. I raise these when first in in any position besides the blinds, and fold them to any raise.

Hand #9: Suited connectors 54 and up. I fold these unless 2 people have limped in.

Thanks,

-Brian

[Gomez22]

I don't know if I'm exactly the right person to answer all of these, but here my opinioins.....Of course, these all depend on table situations:

KJo: I'll usually try to limp in from late middle position (LMP) to LP.

QJo: Personally, I believe this can be a great hand to play anywhere on the table IF the table is loose; if not, I'll play from MP to LP - If there's a raise in front of me from EP, I fold every time, if the raise is from MP, I'll sometimes call from LP.

A10o: I just posted a question about this hand and when and how to play it effectively. About the only thing I can say about it is this: If there's a raise in front, fold. If not, I usually call from LP only.

AXs: If I think I can see the flop cheap, I'll call anywhere from MP to LP with this hand.

PP(22-66): I like to limp with these anywhere. Yes, even from UTG. If there's a raise, I try to make sure enough people go along to make it worth my while.

KTs, QTs, JTs: KTs & QTs I usually will try to limp anywhere from MP to LP. JTs is something different, though.
In my opinion, this is the BEST multiway pot hand to have. I limp anywhere with it, and sometimes (maybe 20-30%) of the time, I'll raise with it from MP if I'm first one in.

KJs, QJs: I'm about in the same boat.. I tend to try and limp with KJs. With QJs, however, I'll play almost the same way as J10s.

KQo, AJo: I'll raise with KQo if first in from MP or later. I'll only raise with AJo from LP. I would tend to call any single raise with these hands from LMP to LP or from the blinds, at least to see the flop, and if there are at least 2 others going besides the PF raiser.

Suited Connectors 54 and above: I'll play these from EMP to LP if I think at least 3 or more others will come along cheaply. I call ANY suited connector from SB (thanks to GuyOnTilt - It's proved profitable lately) if at least 4 are along. I HAVE raised before from button to try and steal blinds with 109s.

FYI: I'll call suited one-gaps (86s, 64s) from either blind if 4 or more are in, and from LP if I'm in LP and 4 have already called - usually have to hit the flop hard(2 pair, set, or 4 flush, open ended straight) or else fold, but these can be profitable if played correctly.

[JTG51]

...but from what I've heard most players see the Flop well over 20% of the time.

Most players also lose. It sounds like you are folding some marginally profitable hands, but playing too tight preflop is a much better problem to have than playing too lose.

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
Most players also lose. It sounds like you are folding some marginally profitable hands, but playing too tight preflop is a much better problem to have than playing too lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the typo there at the end /images/graemlins/smile.gif Thanks JTG, you were one of the people I was hoping would respond to this post.

-Brian

[squiffy]

How are you doing, profit-wise, using those starting requirements? And did you also try those at any other limits? With what results?

[Brian]

Hi Squiffy,

According to Poker Tracker, I am averaging a little over 1BB per hour per table (I play 3 tables). So, I am not doing that bad, but I know that they are definitely beatable for more than that. However, it is probably not my pre-Flop hand requirements that are preventing me from having a bigger BB/hr; rather, it's probably my post-Flop play that is inhibiting me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've played .5/1, 1/2, and 2/4 as well, but I feel that I am a much better player now than I was when I played those limits. Hell, with the amount of hands I play per day, every week I am a much better player than I was the last. I hope the learning curve doesn't drop any time soon /images/graemlins/wink.gif Anmyways, my results were actually better at the lower limits, but no doubt due to good luck (or bad luck at the moment) :P

-Brian

[JTG51]

I like the typo there at the end

LOL, that did turn out pretty well, didn't it?

[me454555]

All those hands are marginally profitable and can go either way depending on post flop play. You probobly arent loosing much EV by folding them like you are. I think a lot of it has to do with your personal playing style. As a general rule of thumb, if you dont feel comfortable playing a hand, then dont play it. Don't play too many hands just b/c other people play them.

[Schneids]

"PP(22-66): I like to limp with these anywhere. Yes, even from UTG. If there's a raise, I try to make sure enough people go along to make it worth my while."

...Very risky business. What happens when you get isolated by a PF raiser and end up heads up against them? Do you call?

Yes, I know there can be positives to this. If you are playing in a game where someone would raise to isolate you with any ace-face or KQ, I assume you'd call to see the flop, and if the flop came out looking like one that wouldn't help a raiser, you'd check raise?

I suppose I can also see the positive to limping UTG with this, if you DO get 5 limpers, AND you hit a set on the flop. You'd be in ideal check raising position there with it also being possible to trap 2-4 callers.

However, I wouldn't recommend these from early position, EVER, unless you are VERY comfortable with your post flop game, AND the game is EXTREMELY loose/passive PF, OR extremely tight/aggressive and a raiser's raise is getting respect and rarely getting cold callers/raisers behind them. I actually wouldn't mind going heads up, in this case, against that raiser who probably raised to isolate me. Against typical opponents, check/raise the flop if there's no high cards, if they three bet, assume they raised an over pair and fold...

[Ed Miller]

You sound fine. You play maybe a hair tighter than I do, but not much. And you gotta play way tighter than that to really start eating your profit significantly.

As you get more experience (and maybe when you start playing fewer than 3 tables at a time.. hehe) you might start adding a hand or two here and there.

[lil']

If the game is loose passive with little pre-flop raising and numerous limpers seeing each flop, you can play low pocket pairs from EP. After the flop they are easy to play. You either get a set or you don't.

In a tight game, you wouldn't want to limp in, since, as you said, you will likely get raised.

[Mike Gallo]

Brian,

In the past posters have posted 100 hands they have played at a table. Consider doing the same.

As far as do you play too tight, I do not think so.

Hand #1: KJo. I always fold this hand to a raise (obviously), and I almost always fold it unless I am in late position. Too tight? Whether I just call or raise with it depends on the number of limpers.

Hand #1: KJo. I always fold this hand to a raise (obviously), and I almost always fold it unless I am in late position. Too tight? Whether I just call or raise with it depends on the number of limpers.

When you call a raise with this hand, you will finish second best too many times. I advocate folding it to a raise also.

Hand #5: Pocket Pairs 22-66. I treat these the same as Axs. If I do happen to get into a game that is passive, I'll definitely play them, but recently most all of the games on Party 3-6 have been aggressive.

Good ideas.

One more suggestion, try finding a more passive game to play in. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
obviously I try as hard as possible to get into loose passive games, but most of the times, the best I can hope for is loose aggressive. I try to never play in tight games.

[/ QUOTE ]

When playing more then 1 table, isnt aggressivness a bigger problem then tightness?

If I play only 1 table - specially if its shorthanded - I love to play against loose-aggressive players. You soon get a read on them and then you normally can use the fact that thet play to many hands.

But if I play more then 1 table its much harder to get a read on the players. Then I'm never sure if a raise is a bluff or not.

Playing more then 1 table I want it to be passive. I rather play tight-passive then loose-aggressive. Tight-passive is good cause you can steal pots when no one got a hand. And you dont have to fold the best hand on turn when they raise your pair with their drawing hands.

[MaxPower]

What percentage of the time do you raise pre-flop? IMHO this is more important than whether you are too tight.

You could probably play a few more hands, but I would be more concerned with being aggressive and playing well post-flop.

[Gomez22]

I'm talking about low limit tables where it's pretty regular to see 4 or more in for the flop. If it looks like I may get isolated against the PF raiser, I'll usually dump after/on the flop if I don't flop a set or an open ended straight draw. Also kinda depends on where the raise came from.

[Mike Haven]

i agree with you MaxPower (http://www.maxpower.co.uk/user/home_template_rotator.asp?idPage=1)

if you "always" open-raise then you are effectively playing two games - you're playing 6-12 with your good hands, and 3-6 with your lesser and folding hands

and until you have to show down a mid-position-raised KJ and start to get unwanted atention to your raises then raise them in - it's easy to go back to tight play, picking up a few hands from callers who haven't caught up with your strategy of the moment, until the heat gets turned off again

[Ulysses]

A few comments:

I think it's really, really hard to play too tight in low-limit games. As majorkong said, you need to play really tight to start negatively impacting your earn to any significant degree.

I play a lot looser than your guidelines. In a lot of games I'll play a lot of those hands all the time. But that's a whole different discussion. Your guidelines are reasonable, but as long as you expect most pots to be multi-way, I'd suggest adding Axs and small pocket pairs to your regular playlist....

You draw a big distinction between KTs, QTs, JTs. v. KJs, QJs. Rather than draw such hard guidelines, you should think about adjusting your play more to the situation. In games where people fold too much, I might raise w/ KTo after a limper or two. In other games where tons of people don't pay off all the way but I still need to show down the best hand, I might fold QJs. Rather than come up w/ the right set of starting hands, you should consider whether the table you're at is right for playing less or more hands, raising more or less, etc.

But to come back to the initial question, a simple answer. In general, at low-limits, tighter will be righter.

[MaxPower]

I'm not suggesting that he always open-raise, but I do think that he should be open raising with more hands in middle and late position. For instance, open-raising with QJo in middle position.

Thanks for link. I'm not that into cars, but I enjoyed the pictures of the car babes.

[Brian]

Hi Ulysses,

Thanks for the response. In general, I do try to think outside of "starting hands" and more in terms of particular situations. But, I had to be more general here just to try to give everyone an idea of how I typically play.

When I first moved from 1/2 to 2/4, after playing around 3,000 hands I decided that playing small pocket pairs and Axs from early position was costing me money, because I was often raised and isolated. Now I just always fold them in EP unless I know the game texture is perfect, which seems to also be wrong.

-Brian

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I decided that playing small pocket pairs and Axs from early position was costing me money, because I was often raised and isolated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm... I'm surprised you found that happening at 2/4. I'd say you're almost always going to be fine playing the small pairs in games like this because the post-flop aggression will let you make more than enough when you flop a set. The same also holds true for Axs, but you don't want it to be super-expensive to get to the river when you're drawing, so being a little more selective w/ those hands is probably reasonable.

[slavic]

No your not too tight. I play a little looser than you, just under 20% when you include the blinds. Those extra hands are only marginaly profitable and I'm not sure I play them well enough that if I excluded them it would make a difference.

As you move up and you competition becomes better these numbers are going to go down. In the 10/20 game I'm routinely run at a 15% flop percentage just because the situations that allow you to play certain hands don't come up.

[Bob T.]

I don't think that you are, and one thing that contributes to your tightness, is that you are playing 3-6, and the blind structure of the game makes for tighter play than at other limits.

[slavic]

Just a quick question. How are you choosing your playing table? If you choose the highest average pot that doesn't mean the game is good, it may have high pots because of aggressive to over aggressive play. I always seem to find a couple tables like this on party even in a sea of passive calling station.

[Brian]

Hi Slavic,

Yeah, I am choosing my games by playing in ones with the highest average pots. I find that the ones with the lowest average pots are always full of tight players, so should I be going with just an average average pot size? I don't like to table bounce too much because I have to do it enough due to tables breaking up all the time. Any advice for picking better games would definitely be appreciated.

-Brian

[slavic]

I normally wait list for 4 or 5 big pot tables. Then I when I sit down I wait to post in the BB and watch the action. You can normally tell if you have a keeper from there.

One of my tests is can I get away with playing small pairs on this table from ep?

On paradise they also give you a flop percentage along with pot size. When I saw a 25BB avg pot size with a 30% flop rate I was normally not playing there.

[kiddo]

Agree. I have played a lot 2/4 at Party Poker and I havent seen much isolating. If UTG bet and I raise UTG+1, there is normally at least 2 more players coldcalling behind, we are at least 4 to see the flop.

[joeysmalls]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #6: KTs, QTs, JTs. I fold these unless in late position.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you raise them after limpers in the late position right?

Other than that as long as your preflop table actions are correct, I think you are playing fine.

If you need reassurance go back and read HPFAP's starting hands chapters. It may sound basic but reviewing the fundamentals is the foundation in any game.

Pedro!,
JT