Two Hand Questions

[Festus22]

Party $0.5/1.

Q /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif in the SB. 3 limpers to me. A real tweener for me on raising with 3 in but I just complete. Should I have raised this even though I'm in poor position? BB checks. Flop [K /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif]. I check with the intention of check-raising if there's a bettor and at least 2 callers. Should I have bet out? Alas it checks around to the button who bets. Now I'm stuck because if I raise, I lose any potential callers feeding my draw but I also probably isolate the button. Which is best with a good draw but no overcards?

Second involves middle pair. A specific hand was 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in MP. 2 limpers, I limp, CO and blinds call. Flop [A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif]. SB checks, BB bets, EP's fold. Raise, call or fold here? I have 5 likely clean outs (at 8:1) and at the momemt, I'm getting 7:1. With the backdoor diamond draw, I opted to call. Was that the worst option? Raising seems so futile since time and time again you get shown the ace when you don't improve. Any good tips on handling middle pair in general?

And one quickie - A-Qo UTG+1. UTG open raises. 3-bet or fold?

[lil']

Hand 1 - I often just bet out and let the calling stations build a pot for me.
Hand 2 - It's close, but calling with the intention of folding the turn if you don't improve makes sense. The backdoor draw pushes this towards being a call.

AQo question - Against a typical raiser, it's a fold. Against a person with a history of raising numerous types hands, I would 3 bet.

[Gomez22]

Not that I'm a genius, but:

HAND 1: I probably would have to agree with lil' here, and bet out. At these low limits, it's been my experience (for the most part) that any top pair, middle pair, straight draw (Even gutshots, although not applicable here), adn flush draw will call. Any other flush draws may raise, but one with the ace is the only one that beats you should you hit. After the button bets, I think you have to call to keep others in the pot (especially on the flop when the bets are cheap). Should you make the flush on the turn, then go for the check-raise, you might even want to do this if you had of bet out on the flop. If you don't make your flush on the turn, you can either check/call or bet out... sometimes I use this technique to find out for sure where everyone stands. If you're raised, look at the pot odds for the call, if not, my guess is usually you'll narrow it down to either open ended straight draws, other flush draws, and top pair. I think this makes the river play much easier, but of course, I'm a relative newbie, so I could be way off base.

HAND 2: If you raise, the only players that are going to call you are those with an ace, 2 pair, a set, or a gutshot...... yes, they will... this is low limit party, they will call a raise probably at least 50% of the time.
If you think you could isolate, raise away, if not, maybe a call, although your kicker isn't too good, here should it come down to it. If I remember right, you're about a 24-1 dog to get running cards for your flush... don't count on that. Best play... call and see the turn cheap, then make a decision. If anyone behind you raises, then get out.
AQo: From UTG+1, with UTG raising, I'll usually try and determine the type of player... I've seen players at Party LL raise from UTG with as low as pocket fours. Doesn't ahppen too often, but it happens. I think you have to make decision based on the rest of the table. I f you think a reraise will take it to you and UTG, then reraise. If you have any doubts about that at all, then just call. Players limp with too much crap at low limits, and you'd really like to be heads-up against this guy. If you get him isolated before the flop, and an ace or queen comes, you may want ot raise just once.... AQ is too easy of a hand to be dominated (AA, AK, AKs, QQ all have you drawing almost dead if an ace comes). AQ can be a tough one, I usually play it probably a little weaker than I should, but I feel I have to be careful with it.

[lil']

Hand 2 - Best play... call and see the turn cheap, then make a decision. If anyone behind you raises, then get out.

If calling with 7:1 odds is correct, then calling after a raise when the odds are even higher for 1 more small bet is still correct.

If you think a reraise will take it to you and UTG, then reraise. If you have any doubts about that at all, then just call. Players limp with too much crap at low limits, and you'd really like to be heads-up against this guy. If you get him isolated before the flop, and an ace or queen comes, you may want ot raise just once.... AQ is too easy of a hand to be dominated (AA, AK, AKs, QQ all have you drawing almost dead if an ace comes). AQ can be a tough one, I usually play it probably a little weaker than I should, but I feel I have to be careful with it.

You say yourself that A-Qo is easily dominated, so why are you advocating calling or isolating the raiser with a likely dominated hand?

[Gomez22]

Basically, I was trying to illustrate that his drawing odds arent' that good here. If this is wrong, I apologize, but I'll try to explain. If he calls a bet here, on the flop, and someone behind him reraises, he has to figure he's waaaaayyyyy behind. Either aces, 2 pair, or a set. If that's the case (and I would believe it is), then his chances of catching a 10 are 22-1 and the flush is about 24-1. Now, having said that, if a raise comes behind him, he WAS getting 7-1 on the call, but the raise and what it means make the chances of his winning the hand diminish to what I would say are about 22-1. Does he then have odds to call a raise behind???? Depends on how many are in, too... If everyone goes along, he'd probably be close to the odds and could call, but if not, he'd be making a mistake to call. That's what I meant about a raise behind. I'm taking into consideration what that raise more than likely means with no 4 flush or 4 straight (besides the gut shot) on the board. If I'm totally off base here, let me know. Thanks for pointing this out and I hope this clarifies what I meant in the original post.

With regards to the AQ hand ,I;m only stating that he could be in a race with middle pair/small pair. I've seen emough UTG raises at low limit to understand that maybe 70% of the time are they legit. I've seen A5s, 22, 44, 88, KJ, just to name a few. If the player that raised were respectable, maybe respect the raise, but it could be an idiotic raise; the chances of that are higher at party .50/1 than anywhere else I know of. An isolation against the raiser here would be, what I believe the best scenario for our hero, but probably won't happen at party. AQ is dominated by those hands I mentioned in the previous post, but that doesn't mean the raiser HAS one of those hands at this table. In a different situation, yes, his hand could easily be dominated, but at .50/1.00, the chances are better that it's not. I'm taking into consideration the table he's at, not basic play strategy.
That's why I wrote what I wrote, Personally, if I thought I could isolate here, in thism particular situation, I'd reraise. If not, I'd call and see the flop. This one comes down to table/player reads, I believe.

[lil']

In hand 1, any ace could raise in that spot. That doesn't mean he has fewer outs. A 9 or 10 would still be good. The only hands that have you dead are A-10, 2-2, and A-2 (we'll assume aces and tens would raise preflop). Other hands could raise, and you will get at least 11-1 to call. Not the best spot in the world, I admit.

I've seen emough UTG raises at low limit to understand that maybe 70% of the time are they legit...That's why I wrote what I wrote, Personally, if I thought I could isolate here, in this particular situation, I'd reraise. If not, I'd call and see the flop.

So you want to enter a hand for 2 or 3 bets when you are dominated 70% of the time? That doesn't make sense.

Again, if the player has a history of raising with less then stellar hands UTG, then by all means stay and play. Against a good or unknown, wait for a better spot.

[Gomez22]

What I'm saying is that more than in any other game, low limit players tend to raise in EP with hands that don't justify it. And I said that if I could isolate, I would reraise, if not, I would call...... Sklansky sayd the same thing in HEPFAP. And in the last post, I was talking about hand 1, not hand 2:

Basically, I was trying to illustrate that his drawing odds arent' that good here. If this is wrong, I apologize, but I'll try to explain. If he calls a bet here, on the flop, and someone behind him reraises, he has to figure he's waaaaayyyyy behind. Either aces, 2 pair, or a set. If that's the case (and I would believe it is), then his chances of catching a 10 are 22-1 and the flush is about 24-1. Now, having said that, if a raise comes behind him, he WAS getting 7-1 on the call, but the raise and what it means make the chances of his winning the hand diminish to what I would say are about 22-1. Does he then have odds to call a raise behind???? Depends on how many are in, too... If everyone goes along, he'd probably be close to the odds and could call, but if not, he'd be making a mistake to call. That's what I meant about a raise behind. I'm taking into consideration what that raise more than likely means with no 4 flush or 4 straight (besides the gut shot) on the board. If I'm totally off base here, let me know. Thanks for pointing this out and I hope this clarifies what I meant in the original post.

[lil']

There have been other posts here in the past about what to do with A-Qo when UTG raises. Maybe you can look those up, since I don't seem to be doing a good enough job explaining it.