I don't think most limit posters can answer this one

[Mike]

No offense to any low limit posters who read this, but I do not know the answer and I am guessing most LL players do not know either.

I get to play with $10 - 20 through pot limit players at the $4-8 table where I live. I don't know how some of these PL guys do at their regular game, but they sure can tear up $4-8!

One thing I have noticed they do is limp, limp, limp, and limp some more. Of course they lose hands just like everyone else, but their stack grows bigger little by little. Then they get bored, or their game starts up and they are gone.

I tend to get pretty loose and thin bet a lot, but I can't hold a candle to these guys in the number of hands they find playable compared to my pretty low standards. I also find PL players harder to play than I do the $10 - 20 players, as the $10 - 20 players are scared to play anything but big cards. I feel that if I limped that much, I would be on the rail with the quickest losing session in town.

Seeing I know very little about PL strategy, I am hoping someone has some insight on this. What is it about PL play that helps them do so well at regular limit play - before they get bored? Thanks

[sam h]

Mike,

I think you might need a little bit larger of a sample size here. In my experience, good pot limit players often suck at limit for exactly the reason you stated - they play too many hands. No matter how good you are at reading situations and players, it's hard to make up for regularly playing small cards out of position in limit poker. If the game is soft enough and enough people regularly see the flop you might still break even or win a bit in the long run. But "limp, limp, and limp some more" isn't optimal strategy in limit poker, although in pot limit with big stacks it might be.

[crockpot]

my theory is that the pot limit players are just much better poker players than the others, so they can get away with playing more hands by outplaying the opposition later. however, i think they would do better to toss some of these hands preflop; it's just that their win rate is so high that playing these hands only costs them a little.

by the way, in pot limit it is correct to limp with a lot of hands if you are a good player, so that probably explains their propensities to do so.

[Riverman]

In pot limit it is correct to see flops when you know roughly what your opponent has but he will have great difficulty figuring out your hand. In limit the implied odds are not as great with these hands, even with position. I suspect these players either totally outplay the field after the flop, or the other players are weak tight. There is simply no way to consistently overcome playing bad starting hands in limit holdem.

[1800GAMBLER]

I'm guessing their just playing more suited card etc. since:

1. They probably like the odds they get to draw compared to PL.
2. They can't get pushed off their hand with big preflop raises.
3. The stakes are probably meaning a lot less to them so they loosen up.
4. They probably trust their reads more and can get away from these hands.

I imagine they play like Dynasty with Axs.

Mason has an essay on these types of 'loose-genius-winning' players in the essay section.

[Mike]

You may be right here, my PL player pool is only three who sometimes play LL. I posted with the thought that two of them do pretty well when I am at the table, and the third one...well, you are correct about his play at limit poker.

[Lazymeatball]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason has an essay on these types of 'loose-genius-winning' players in the essay section.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gus Hansen anyone?

[Mike]

Thanks, I will check it out.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

In big bet poker, implied odds allow you to limp with more hands than you could in limit poker, and I suspect that this mentality boils over from the pot limit games to the 4-8 games when the pot limit players are in. More experience probably has something to do with why the pot limit players seem to get away with this. Being a player of both games tho, I would tend to NOT limp as much in limit games, as the implied odds simply are NOT as high limit games, so fewer hands should be played.

al

[Munga30]

When the play is passive at pot limit, they are correct to limp in with a lot of hands. When they encounter the same resistance at limit, they do what comes naturally. They may also play play better than your typical 4-8 player after the flop.

Whatever the reason, you should raise more frequently when you want to enter a pot to crush their implied odds. This is where big offsuit cards can really earn some EV. Sure, you will check-fold the flop a good number of times, but you will also steal some fatter pots on flops you miss and will really make them pay when you have them dominated.

Don't play their game and start limping in with all kinds of crap. You will end up playing a few more hands, especially in late position, because there will be more players in the pot, but don't do as they do because of some bad habits brought from pot limit.

[Zag]

Clearly, if they are using this strategy and seem to be winning, then either they are outplaying the field postflop or are very lucky. However, I suspect that the situation is more that the rest of the field, being intimidated by the "big-bet players slumming it down here" are outplaying themselves.

Get position on them, if you can. Whether you have position on them or not, be far more inclined to raise preflop. Hands like TT and KQs should be raised if these loose callers are the only ones in the pot.

Don't be easily pushed off pots, especially at first. Let them think you are a calling station by calling them down with second pair, or with top pair no kicker, the first time you get heads up with one of them. You only have to do this once, and they won't bluff against you anymore. Then, DO NOT EVER let them see you make a tough laydown. Decide in advance if you are going to lay down a hand, and do it quickly, as if you were just caught bluffing and are giving it up. Whatever you do, don't show it just to show off what a great laydown you made.

Finally, they are not as great as they think, nor is their approach as reasonable as they think. Try this experiment: Using Turbo Hold'em or the equivalent, set it up so that you get to see all the hands all the time. Now, try to beat the game with the one rule that you must always call (at least) preflop. That is, you have to still be in every hand when the flop comes down. I'm sure that, if you could see all your opponents' cards, you could outplay them at least as well as these big bet players can outplay your table. You'll find that the money you lose by calling too much is still tough to recover. I have gotten to where I can do it consistantly, but the exercise is, I think, illuminating.

[tewall]

How do you know they're winning? It may be just luck (small sample size), or you're being selective in what you're noticing (about their winning). It may also be that they're playing more correctly than you are if you are playing too tight and the game is really loose/passive.

[Mike]

Thanks, you have posted some excellent advice and opinions! I am sure at your level it's boring stuff, but watching them play at mine is a pretty good show.

I learned my lesson two years ago about playing to much, I found a book on small card play as I would occasionally see small cards players make a killing. It wasn't for me, 30 BB an hour swings is not my cup of tea.

I did figure out how to play them, and they do slow down when I come in with a raise. I do win pots off of them.

Watching them make 25 BB in an hour is impressive. Watching them leave with it is not.... Then again it just may be selective memory at work.

At any rate, it's fun to watch them go at it. Thanks again for your comments.