Why else do you play besides the money?

[Coach Tom]

In life coaching my clients find an edge by getting really clear about their deep whys. I'm curious, do you know exactly why you play poker? What does the experience give you in addition to the possibility of winning money?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I have a competitive nature and enjoy intellectual challenges. I also enjoy the comeraderie of the community here at 2+2.

Poker gives me an outlet to learn and improve a competitive skill and at the same time supplement my income and add a measure of income security.

[J.R.]

I never realized this before, so I suppose it was not a why in the first place, but poker has brought me unexpected benefits, most notably, emotional control and maturity. Losing streaks suck, and like many things I am confronted with on a day to day basis, they are unpreventable and inevitable. Yet the effect of these situations, people or instances that are unpreventable and inevitable can be minimized. I can't control these things, but I can control my reaction to them. Getting sucked out on or outplayed has forced me to become more detached, more aware of what I can control and what I can not. All I can do is improve myself and keep it together.

As a result, I think I better control my anger and frustration in that, while I am not complacent or overwhelmed with a sense of fatalism, I can recognize the things in my life that are out of my control, that I can not change. I expend less energy, both emotional and physical, on things that can not be changed. I accept them and try to rationally repspond to these people, situations or instances. I try to indentify the things within my control, learn about those things and develop them to their full potential.

I really enjoy developing that sense of detachment, and find that it makes my life less stressful and more productive. I don't bang my head against the proverbial wall trying to move the immovable object, I act like water and flow around it. Not sure if its zen or taoist of buddhist or whatever, but I think poker helps me develop that inner peace, and helps me identify what I should be focusing my efforts and energies on, and what isn't worth the time.

I can only worry about me and doing the best I can, and everything else is not worth getting worked up about, because it will happen as it happens and I can't change that.

[gonores]

There is something about winning a negative-sum game and knowing that you have to consistently and substantially out-perform you opponents to win that is very appealing to my hyper-aggressive nature. It's not like a sport where if you are just slightly better than your opponent you will normally win. In poker, you have to be very good, nay, great to even turn a long-term profit.

That being said, I would have found another arena in which I could compete if it weren't for the money.

Doug

[Dentist]

I don't play for the money at all.
High stakes cause me too much remorse when I lose and frankly I'm not good enough for those games.
Low stakes aren't enough enough $ to make a difference to me.

In terms of EV, every hour I spend playing poker could be much more profitable if spent on some aspect of my business, which is far more lucrative than poker could ever be for me.

But I like the gamble, the competition that doesn't rely on athletic talent, and the fact that there are meaningful results (money is something of value, when people play spades or scrabble it's just for fun and no one cares). Money brings meaning to the game (even if it's not enough to matter).

The game's subtleties genuinely interest me.
If I goto a B&M it's a fun night out that I can do by myself or with a friend or 2.
If I'm at home it's fun to play on-line while I watch a baseball/football game and a buddy can sit there next to me and we can kick ideas around on how to play a hand since we look at the same cards - the internet allows that "group play" factor (and i'm not talking collusion here).

Poker at play stakes or micro-stakes is meaningless.
That's probably why I enjoy tourneys so much. It's real money, but you just play with chips with prizes at the end...

[Robk]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious, do you know exactly why you play poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because playing poker is better than having a job:

1. I can work when I want
2. I can work where I want
3. I can work as little as I want
4. I make a lot more money
5. How much I make is determined entirely by how well I perform.

[ QUOTE ]
What does the experience give you in addition to the possibility of winning money?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gray hair.

[rharless]

JR, your post reminded me of one of my favorite quotes -- "life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it." Here is the whole poem (Charles Swindell):

The longer I live
The more I realize the impact of attitude on life.
Attitude, to me, is more important than facts.
It is more important than the past,
Than education,
Than money,
Than circumstances,
Than failures,
Than success,
Than what people think or say or do.
It is more important than appearence,
Giftedness or skill.
It will make or break a company...a church...
A home.
The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day
Regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day.
We cannot change the inevitable.
The only thing we can do
Is play on the one string we have.
And that is our attitude...
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me
And 90% how I react to it.
And so it is with you...we are in charge of our attitudes.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

There's an old Norse (I believe) adage that says

"Friends die, animals die, and one day I shall die. But the one thing that will never die is the reputation I leave behind."

You're remembered for *how* you handled life.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Please forgive my plugging my book, "The Psychology of Poker," (Two Plus Two, 2000) but I have spent a lot of time discussing the question you asked. In fact, there is a chapter titled: "Why Do You Play Poker?"

The chapter begins: If you asked that question, most people would reply, "To make money," but they would be kidding themselves. First, most of them lose, and any loser who claims to be trying to make money is obviously denying reality.
Second, we do hardly anything for just one reason. For example, most of us don't work just to make money; we also want other satisfactions such as making a contribution, being respected, keeping busy, and meeting people. If we work for more reasons than money, why would anyone claim that we play a game just for money?
Because poker is a macho game with a macho culture. The very purpose of the game is to take each other's money. Machismo is so important that some people who don't really care about winning pretend they play to win.
We humans are competitive creatures, and we compete at or in almost everything: Poker, golf, our cars, houses, and social positions, whatever. We play games because we are so competitive, and lots of us take them very seriously — even if no money is at stake. A popular poster says: "Tennis is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that."
Since the money we win or lose measures our success at poker, we naturally over-emphasize it. Lots of golfers play for money, but you will never hear one say, "I play to make money." They play for fun, and winning money is just a small part of the pleasure.
The myth that people play just or mostly for money is reinforced by many poker books. If their authors don't win, they don't eat. Since winning is so important to them, they commit the Egoistic Fallacy by assuming that their readers' have the same priorities. For example, the author of one common poker book states: "The only purpose in playing poker is to win money."
Nonsense! Many people want to win lots of pots, even if it means they lose money. The kick of winning all those pots is more important to them than the bottom line. Why else would they make so many loose plays? They know their looseness is very expensive, but the kick of winning many pots is more important to them than the money.
Poker is a game, not a business for most of us. We play games for all kinds of reasons, but mostly for pleasure. The dollars won and lost are essentially the same as strokes in golf, just a way to keep score.
It is competing, winning for its own sake, cutting strokes off their handicap that drives many people, not the money. In addition, everybody — even the most profit-oriented professional — has completely unrelated motives such as the desire for excitement, machismo challenges, socializing, and just having a pleasant time.
Anyone who says that people play to maximize their winnings is blind to what actually happens in many poker games. For example, many players deliberately turn away or tell others not to flash their cards; they don't want to win that way. Some players will not bet a lock when they are heads-up with a friend. And nearly everybody — including me — occasionally takes foolish risks such as playing weak hands, ignoring pot odds, and playing against superior players.
You cannot understand your own or any other player's motives until you realize that the insistence that most people play to win is just flat wrong. This position is identical to the economists' axiom that business people try to maximize their profits. Until very recently profit maximization was an article of faith, a foundation of their discipline. Nobody dared challenge it.
Finally, Prof. Simon, my former colleague at Carnegie- Mellon University, looked at what business people actually do. He wrote that the economists were wrong: Nearly all business people strive for satisfactory rather than maximum profits because trying to maximize would force them to do lots of things they don't want to do.
Traditional economists went ballistic. They ranted and raved and nearly screamed: "Heresy!" In an earlier century they would have burned him at the stake. The "fact" that business people tried to maximize profits was as obvious as the "fact" that the sun revolves around the earth.
But he won the argument, and he did it in exactly the same way that earlier scientists changed the way we regard the solar system: By producing undeniable evidence. For analyzing what business people really do he was awarded the Nobel Memorial Prize for Economics. It's hard to argue that a Nobel Laureate is out of his mind.
Simon's "satisficing" principle means that you, me, and nearly everybody else wants to win a satisfactory amount or avoid losing too much; we are not willing to do everything it takes to win the most possible money. We would have to treat poker like a job, and it's not a job to us. It's a game, and we should never forget that fact.
To understand your own motives you should ask a second question: Why do you play the way you do? Each style satisfies some needs and frustrates others. For example, calling stations and maniacs do not play to win (no matter what they say). Calling stations play to socialize and pass time, and maniacs are literally addicted to action.

Please forgive my going on and on, but I think denial of the reality of our motives is a major problem for many players. You and I share a belief that people should understand why they act the way they do.

Regards,

Al

[Vehn]

Just the money and the ego stroking that comes with the money I guess. And its something to do thats "productive".

[Ed Miller]

Hehe... last night a friend who I hadn't talked to since I started playing poker called playing poker productive. She was basically the first person who I've talked to since I started who has ever called it productive. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Vehn]

*shrug* What does the "average" person do after work or on the weekends? Sit around and watch TV, mostly. At least "we" make some extra money in our spare time and put our brains to some use.

[PuppetMaster]

Nice post. I must disagree with you though on one point. Personally, I feel that I enjoy the mental struggle more than I enjoy "winning". When I am playing and someone makes a nice play on me, I dont get upset. I simply tip my hat to them. On the otherhand, when someone draws out on the river it is "ugly" and it gets me very mad.
Above all, I respect and love the beauty of poker.

[sucka]

Dude - the river is there for a purpose and people will 'draw' out on you - period.

You are going to make more money from people attempting to draw out on you than you will lose when they hit.

Think about it - if the only people that you played against were all the tight/aggressive/tricky types there wouldn't be much there for the taking.

Your getting 'very mad' for all the wrong reasons. Sure, it's frustrating as hell when people suck out - no question. However, in the same breath you should thank your lucky stars they are in your game and that they stay long enough to donate that money back to the rest of table chasing their 2 and 3 outers down to the river everytime.

I'm sure that in time you'll get more used to taking beats and losing hands that you were a clear favorite with from the get-go. That's poker. If you love and respect it's beauty so much - you have to learn to love and respect that part of it as well. That quicker you figure that out the better off you'll be.

[PuppetMaster]

Schoonmaker made the statement that winning and the competitive nature of poker is the real underlining reason that we play. My response is that good play, is what makes poker fun to me. To be honest I sort of enjoy it when a person makes a nice play on me, even though I am losing my money. I just dont enjoy getting drawn out on. And yes I understand that I should be happy that they chase, but that wasnt the point.

[ QUOTE ]
Dude - the river is there for a purpose and people will 'draw' out on you - period.

You are going to make more money from people attempting to draw out on you than you will lose when they hit.

Think about it - if the only people that you played against were all the tight/aggressive/tricky types there wouldn't be much there for the taking.

Your getting 'very mad' for all the wrong reasons. Sure, it's frustrating as hell when people suck out - no question. However, in the same breath you should thank your lucky stars they are in your game and that they stay long enough to donate that money back to the rest of table chasing their 2 and 3 outers down to the river everytime.

I'm sure that in time you'll get more used to taking beats and losing hands that you were a clear favorite with from the get-go. That's poker. If you love and respect it's beauty so much - you have to learn to love and respect that part of it as well. That quicker you figure that out the better off you'll be.

[/ QUOTE ]

[SittingBull]

[Duke]

Because there will always be work, no matter how bad the economy is.

~D

[Blackjackgod]

I play because I have an addiction pure and simple. I am no big winner or loser (more of a loser) but lets be honest here if I am not in a game I am looking for a game.

[MaqEvil]

Well, I can make more money playing online poker than I could with a usual crappy summer/college job. Furthermore, I get to choose when and how long I play; there's no commute, no [censored] boss and I can do it sitting on my butt. I like the idea of being able to make a lot more money than my friends, who are doing actual work, by sitting and playing poker.

I'd still play if it weren't for the money though. I like poker; it's a good mental excercise whose concept are applicable to other situations. I have more fun in our home games with tough competition and a low buyin than I do, making way more money online.

Lastly, poker is something that I'm both good at and enjoy doing, which is really a pretty rare combo for me. Besides, when people ask me if I have a job, I can tell them that I play poker, which usually provokes an interesting reaction. (Though I don't see why the most common reaction to me saying that I play poker is asking if I work for a casino)

[Al Schoonmaker]

You stated: "Schoonmaker made the statement that winning and the competitive nature of poker is the real underlining reason that we play."

I most definitely did not say that. In fact, I emphatically disagree with the idea that there is ONE underlying reason for playing. Every psychologist knows that nearly all human behavior is affected by a variety of motives. Even something as simple as sex or eating involves multiple motives. Complicated, time consuming activities such as poker are almost always conducted for a variety of motives.

These motives vary from person to person and moment to moment. The important issues are to understand why YOU and your current opponents play poker, and why YOU and they play it a certain way.

I capitalized YOU because understanding yourself is the most important issue.

In my book I provide a crude method for assessing the relative strengths of a variety of motives. Your scores would be different from mine, and they might be different from the ones you had last week or last month.

Regards,

Al

[mosch]

I'm in the same boat, really. It's about the competition, the money is just a way to keep score.

My poker play reminds me a lot of the betting that goes on in my regular foursome. I go out on Saturday morning and come home a happy man if I won $20 in bets. It doesn't matter that I paid $100 in greens fees. It doesn't matter that I spent $50 at the clubhouse, because the winner buys. I'm just happy that I won.

Poker is much the same... I'll sit with my daughter (who loves poker, but is consistently -EV) or my friends and keep a game going on a laptop while we watch TV or what not. I don't care that they're losing the money I earned when I was playing without them, it's just a fun thing to do.

At the B&M, it's more of the same... I try to play well enough to break even, and if I'm at a grouchy table, I play to win. But if I'm at a fun table where everybody's playing loose, and everybody's having fun, I'll do nearly anything. The other day I was at a remarkably loose 5/10 (one guy's birthday, and all his buddies from his home game were at the table), so I did the incredibly stupid thing of seeing every single flop for two hours. It was stupid, it was -EV, it was fun.

[Cyndie]

Wow, the $64,000 question. Without being egotistical... those who know me understand that I am an old lady who loves poker...I have been successful as a teacher, a businesswoman and my kids say as a mom, but what I love is to play poker, and encouage people to play poker, because it is good for people and the world.

Ya...it sounds corny, but it is actually based on some totally logical premises and just taken to a conclusion. Yes, there are some opinions here, but that is what makes a philosophy.

One: The internet will make major changes in the way people live. People should do jobs that are creative, not repetetive.

Two: People who use their minds are people who are very likely to come up with ideas of value, and accomplish things that takes "human" insight. Plus...they are fun to be around, by and large.

Three: Entertainment is a huge business, and the people who play games should be able to make a living from them, since they know a lot about them.

Four: At least in America, the tax laws...even though there are some prejudicial laws for gamers...are very beneficial to self-employed people.

Five: Happiness and satisfaction come from doing things you like and doing them well and knowing that life, by its very nature is creative, and not a zero or negative sum game, but adds value by its creativity and ideas.

If you agree at least in part with those ideas, you see why I play poker. I get to make a good living...not just from the table, see other people make a good living...none of the people who work with us should expect to be fifty years old and looking for a buy in! I get to be around people who are capable intellectually to find discussions like this stimulating...I hope! and I love the game!