This felt fishy.

[ThingDo]

I'm new to the table, and i have no reads on any of the players.


I have AJo in the SB and there are 4 limpers to me: UTG MP CO and Button.


I complete ( I don't normally raise AJo from the blinds. Am I missing bets here? ).

BB checks and the flop comes JQ6r. I check however I considered betting out here. I certainly didn't feel that a check raise with second pair on this flop against unknowns was the right play. Check to LP who bets, button calls, I call for some reason, and everyone else folds.


Turn is an A completing the rainbow. I check to LP who bets button calls I raise and they both call.

River is a blank I bet and they both call. How can I justify this flop call against complete unkowns with second pair. I felt stupid and fishlike afterwards... maybe I'm wrong in thinking that way... part of the reason I wanted to call here was to get some kind of a read on my opponents but I don't know if this was the right spot to do it in and I don't know if that is enough reason to call down here with second pair with the pot being so small.

[tj00]

I would not raise AJo from the SB with 4 limpers. I would bet the flop there is a chance you have the best hand, and if not you have outs. Since you checked I would checkraise instead of call it will narrow the field and give you a better read on CO and the button.

[Dynasty]

I've never raised with AJo in the small blind after four limpers.

Check-calling with middle pair in this spot isn't as "fishy" as it may feel. On a QJ6 flop, there is only one overcard that you're worried about making somebody else a better one-pair hand. A bigger concern is gut-shot draws.

[ThingDo]

Should I be seeing the turn with this hand? If so I'm giving up a lot of EV as I've been folding middle pair on boards like that quite often. I knew I had outs to improve, but at the time I didn't feel like it was enough to call... while checkraising might narrow the field and give me a better read is it worth it in such a small pot? Also... if I do indeed checkraise this flop and I miss on the turn what is my action?

[tj00]

Betting middle pair out of postion can be tricky and I am no expert. When I look to bet my middle pairs, I evaluate the chances of it being the best hand coupled with chances of improving if not. I take into account how vulnerable it is to overcards, flushes, straights. To answer one of your question I do not think you are giving up a lot of EV by folding in spots like this.

[Ed Miller]

I think you played fine. I wouldn't raise preflop from the blinds with AJo (of course I would raise with AJs, for the record). The flop call is ok. It's close one way or the other.

[ThingDo]

Thanks for the replys... this has helped me more than you might think. However, if someone can give me some sort of idea as to what my action might be if I missed on the turn I'd appreciate it... ( this assumes I've check raised the flop and both the LP and button have called my check raise. )

[joeysmalls]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't normally raise AJo from the blinds. Am I missing bets here? ).


[/ QUOTE ]

No. I complete when there is a family of limpers.

Getting 8:1 on your flop call is plenty to take one off.

I bet out on a flop like this when I play live (and am carrying the right image), but online I'd check-call.

Peace,
JT

[Mike Gallo]

Thing,

You played the hand fine.

You could have bet the flop or check raised the flop.

After the flop the hand played itself.

How can I justify this flop call against complete
unkowns with second pair.

Pretty simple. You had the best hand.

[ElSapo]

Just complete, don't raise 4 limpers.

I'd either check-raise or bet out on the flop. Check-calling doesn't give you any information, and thats what you need right now.

As for why you see the turn, I'd do it because you likely have the best hand. I wouldn't just assume someone is holding a queen -- which is why betting out makes sense, as does the CR. I tend to checkraise a lot of flops when I fold middle pair ace kicker. You've got outs, you may just have the best hand and you may get a weak queen to fold the turn.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

How can I justify this flop call

You're getting 6-1 when it gets to you with 2 potential overcalls behind. You're probably ahead often enough here to justify calling with 5 outs, especially with the bet coming from last position.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I disagree. The range of hands that can be making that late position bet after everyone else has checked is so large that folding here to one bet is a definite mistake. He's got the best hand here often enough to make the call +EV.

[tj00]

I think this is a EV+ situation too. He asked he if was giving up a lot of EV by folding. I guess it depends on how you characterize the phrase "a lot". I could be wrong and this could be a higher EV+ spot than I perceive it to be. It would not be the first time, maybe just the second /images/graemlins/grin.gif, time I am wrong.

[Pat C]

I'm very interested in your check-raise move with middle pair. Would you mind elaborating on what type of action you'd be looking for to gain info. Using this post would be a great example. In this example, if the two already committed for a bet called, do you infer they have a queen? Also, since he's in early position, do you think this would still buy him a free card on the turn if he didn't improve or would you still advocate betting out on turn?

[Nutz&Boltz]

I would lean towards a fold here for 2 reasons.
1) Without a read on the table-players you don't know If the bet was made by a rock or a maniac. Calling with marginal hands is how the good players get the money from the bad players. Why not save your chips until later when you can use your experience and knowledge.
2) I avoid marginal calls early in a session, because it can put you in a hole, get you stuck and you may spend the whole night trying to catch up. I also like to project a very tight image early.

Any logic in this?