I chase losers and I fold winners; how to throw it in reverse? c hand

[doggin]

I'm in MP and dealt A 4 clubs.
Folded to me by UTG 1 and 2, I call, folded to LP who calls,
CO checks, button folds, SB folds, and BB checks.

Flop; 2d, Js, 3c

BB checks, I check (too weak?), LP checks, CO bets,
BB then folds, and dumb ass me folds, and LP calls.

Turn is Kc

LP checks, CO bets, LP calls

River is 5h (damn!)

check, bet, call........CO wins with a pair of Jacks.

So how far/long do you chase? Is this leak as bad as my
KQo in LP?

After reading HEPFAP, I think I should have checked and called all the way or would you have raised and re-raised?



Thanks fellows

[JohnShaft]

OK Doggin, my man.
I've gotta come straight at you with this.
You ready?

Fold Preflop.

[doggin]

Three more clubs and the pot is all mine.
Not to mention the straight draw??

I know I can find the text in HEPFAP that will
prove my call in MP correct......

These tables are not tight.

How about expounding a bit on this?


And, thanks for reading.

[lil']

Doesn't a straight beat a pair of jacks anymore?

[Gomez22]

I may be wrong, but I agree with John (not saying he's wrong... he's right), but I want to expound.
First - NEVER call with A4s from MP unless you have at least 5 other players in for the flop (The more players in for a flush/straight draw, the better - you need those odds). With this hand, you're looking for a flopped 4-flush. If an ace flops and there's any action, you're going to be behind because of your kicker. With the flop you got, you're looking for a 5 on the turn. If I remember right, there were about 5.5 small bets or so in the pot. While an ace on the turn may help, it may cause you to have a dominated hand. With 5.5 bets in the pot, and you looking for the 5, you have drawing odds of 10.75-1 and pot odds of 5.5-1. You have to fold. If you factor in getting an ace on the turn, it makes the drawing odds 4.8-1, so you would have the odds to call here, but remember, an ace can cause more harm than good here. IF you had called (probably NOT a good play here), you would then have 12 outs (ANY of the 9 clubs, and the other 3 fives). At this point, you're about a 3-1 dog to make a straight or the nut flush, so you can call just about any bet/raise.
Second - Just read what's above. Sounds like you're relatively new to hold em. At this point, learn all you can about pot odds and play strictly by them until you can master that part of the game, then move on to some other skills. I've only been playing about 3 months now, and I started out calling/raising and folding by pot odds.... It can make for pretty boring poker, but it WILL save you money in the long run (I speak from experience).
Third - Keep posting on this forum. Just about everyone here knows tons and tons more about hold em than me. A lot of them have helped me immensely. For that, I'm grateful.

Hope this helps some..... remember the POT ODDS!!!

[Gomez22]

Yeah, it does, but he folded on the flop.....

He NEVER had the pot odds to call the flop bet (at least not for the stright).....

[SoCalPat]

While I don't advocate folding A4s in a loose-passive table from MP, you're thinking in all of this is dead wrong.

You're 11-1 just to flop two clubs. Then it's another 3.7-1 to make your flush. And what if the board is paired? Getting a flush just doesn't happen frequently enough to justify chasing it with every suited hand.

There are worse times to take a card off than the one you mentioned (you've got four outs to the nuts, as well as your ace overcard and runner-runner possibilities), but if you're banking on the river to make your hand more often than not, you're going to forever be a loser in poker.

[JohnShaft]

Dude! You're wanting to play hands again.

OK. My pitch.
Sure you can play A weak suited Ace in EP (Dynasty, Dynasty everwhere...). And you know what? You probably CAN play it in the game you're in at your table.

Downsides in this situation?
1. You've already had two folders. That makes this spot WORSE, not better than if you'd been UTG. The chance you'll get multiway action is already slimmed down.
2. You're a beginning player. Good players could play at a low limit table with this hand with not a lot of trouble. But you just don't have the experience to be likely to be able to play this well.


You want multiway action for this. What you don't want is to find yourself, 3 (or even 4)way action for this. What you really don't want is for it to be folded to a guy who raises with a (typically) better Ace and you're headsup, or close to.
You don't have the skill to get yourself out of that hole. You flop an Ace, you don't have the confidence to be able to put in any raises with it because of your atrocious kicker.

You only need 3 clubs? Dude. Comeon.
That's no excuse to play suited cards. That sounds like the "but it was sooted!" club.
You're about 8-1 to flop a 4-flush. You're then STILL 2-1 AGAINST making the Flush.
Save it for multiway action.

Can you play it here?
Yeahhhh. There's a lot of good players here who can make money limping with this hand in your game. You aren't one yet.

And you know why I really want YOU to fold in this spot? You're playing too many hands. You're WANTING to play them. You'd be better of folding hands you want to play because *you want to play too many hands*...

[Gomez22]

I may not be that good, but EVEN I know that I'd love to have a player like this at any table I'm playing at. Good comments, John.

[lil']

I knew I was missing something, but I couldn't figure out what.

Anyway, it seems like our hero is focusing more on results than what the correct play is. Easy flop fold.

[doggin]

That's why I'm here friend, to learn. Posting hands and
reading everyones responses is, simply put, a great
resource.
I do need to start thinking about pot odds. I have Gary
Carson's book coming from Amazon in a few days too.
There is supposedly a good chapter on odds in it.
The thing about HEPFAP, is that the plays may be proper
in one game under certain conditions and not proper in
another under other conditions. Trying to put it all
together in your game at the moment is the trick (I guess).
I am having trouble getting to the level where I just
break even at the micro-limits, while others go right in a
winner in just a few months or at the start.
I really like HEPFAP though. There is so much information in that book it is amazing.

[JohnShaft]

I like Carson's book. It was the first book I bought. HPFAP is required reading.

But imo without a doubt the best book for the type of games you are playing in is still Lee Jones Winning Low Limit Holdem.
It's a great starting point for really loose LL games.
You can pick up what it doesn't cover, or doesn't cover well, from HPFAP and Carson's book.

[Gomez22]

Like I said... concentrate on pot odds only right now... and reading boards... there are alot of players out there who know about pot odds, but know nothing about reading boards. For example:

I was playing a low limit game today, dealt A10s in the CO.

I had 5 limpers in front of me, I called, button called, so did both blinds. 9.... YES, NINE of us to see the flop of 2s 3h 3s.... EP bet out, I called (don't call with only overcards until you get pot odds covered). 4 of us to turn, which was Ac. Checked to me, I bet, all 4 called.... River was a 3, giving me a full house.... EP bet out, I raised.... EVERYONE called, and I took it down.

I aksed the table if anyone read boards anymore... know what??? 2 players asked what the boards was.... Learn to read boards as well.....

[doggin]

Thanks guys. I like the way John came back to go into some
details on this hand with me. You sound like a vey good
player. I'm glad I can communicate with them here.

[doggin]

I would have been worried someone had that 3 out there.

[Gomez22]

First off, no sane person is going to enter a pot with a 3 in their hand, unless there's ALOT of players in for the flop... Oh, wait.... there were.....

Second... No, I wasn't worried... know why? No raises on the flop... If someone (besides the opening bettor on the flop) woulda had the 3, they woulda raised HARD.... and raised, and raised, and raised....... The turn card was checked to me..... not a person at that table woulda had a 3 and not raised it PF or on the turn. If someone did, either they're a better player than me, or an idiot... I'd vote for idiot, because a flopped set should never, never, never be slowplayed... especially with a possible 4 flush on the flop. Could someone have had a 2???? Sure..... did they???? Don't know.. I'm guessing at least 2 players were shooting for a flush...... bad players make bad mistakes that give you money... remember that.... you make money by other players mistakes.

[doggin]

A pretty good feeling no doubt on the river betting with
not having to worry about a flush draw afterall.

[Dynasty]

doggin,

Based on your previous posts (playing ~60% of your hands), folding on this flop is a step foward for you. You need to stop making any marginal, possibly loose, calls. Then, when you've got your game under reasonable control, you can open up a bit. I think that's going to take a while. Right now, I think you should play close to weak-tight and get comfortable with it.

Based on your comment that "Cutoff checks", I'm assuming that the Cutoff posted in this hand. If that is so, I would be willing to open-limp in MP with A4s (although I might raise). Without that extra money in the pot, I'm not open-limping in MP with Axs (But, I'd still do it in EP).

When this flop comes, it's marginal for you. You've got a gut-shot, backdoor flush draw, and an Ace overcard. If somebody has a pair, you have about an 8-out hand. That's enough to call a flop bet. However, when it was checked, I would have bet out hoping to get raised by a pair to clean up my Ace outs.

Players who play well post-flop should not be auto-folding on this flop.