Question for Mason re Omaha

Mason,

I bought and really enjoy your Poker Essays III book, it is great. On the front it says, "For both hold 'em and stud players," and indeed that is what it is. This got me to thinking that in the books by you and David, you never say much about Omaha. Is this merely coincidence, or are you not a big fan of this form of poker as compared to some others? I don't play Omaha so know next to nothing about it, but have had some players express to me the view that they think it is too much luck, "waiting for the nuts," and there is not as much skill required in Omaha as Stud or hold 'em. Then there are others like Ciaffone who say (pot limit, high) Omaha is their favorite game. Of course I don't know how Caiffone would feel about Omaha Hi/Lo 8 or better, maybe that is a different story.

Anyway, I was just wondering if you disliked the game as I notice you don't seem to comment much about it. Thanks as always for your great book and comments, they have helped me immeasurably.


Tim

I once worte an article that said that limit Omaha was a worthless game, and that it would virtually go away, and it did. As for limit Omaha eight-or-better, I do on rare occasion play it, and David and Ray play it a lot. I have never played pot limit Omaha. So because of that I don't have much to say on these games.

Tim,


If players think that Omaha 8 or Better "is too much luck" they are wrong. My experience with this game with the limits below $10-$20 that most of the players are terrible. Your skill in these low limit games comes from drawing to hands that can make the nuts and reading the board correctly. Plus, poor players frequently get lost in there hands and don't know what to do. You can see this before the flop and during play if it is taking them a long time to figure out if they should call. And when they are taking a long time it usually means they have an inferior hand. In the higher limit games you will experience short handed pots, so the nuts is not necessary, but what is necessary if being able to read your opponents, so you will use real skill in the high limit games just like when you play Hold'em. But, unlike hold'em where the value of the hand gets dealt to you holds up, there is not much overlay in Omaha 8 or better, especially where most of the pots are multiway, so a pair of aces is usually worthless, unless one of them is suited and you have a duece or trey to go along with it.


I know Mason has stated in the past that the game is slow to deal and the players hesitate quite often with their hands. But, when you have a table with bad players it is a very profitable game, even though you are dealt half as many hands per hour or less as compared to Hold'em. Furthermore, when you win a pot in Omaha 8 or Better, the pots are very big when compared to Hold'em, and this is because more people stay beyond the flop hopelessly drawing to inferior hands.


I don't play Omaha High because it just is not spead around that many places. But, if you are planning to play Omaha 8 or Better you may want to pick up Ray Zee's book.


Good Luck


Mark

Is Ray Zee's book only for players who have experience of Omaha 8? If not can anyone recommend the best book on this game for beginners, I'd like to have a go at learning the game.

Ray Zee's book has his 22 concepts that should get you on the right track to profits. There's a lot more in the book too, but those 22 concepts are gold.


Here's what Ray has to say after the 22........."Consequently, if you have a good grasp of everything covered so far, you should be able to hold your own in most games payed in a public cardroom".


Good Luck


Howard

Thanks to all for your responses. Hold 'em dominates in the cardroom I play at, it is rare to find any other game. So I probably couldn't play it anyway, but did not want to spend the time to learn a game that was inferior. I have heard many opinions on Omaha, both good and bad. Besides the most prevalent one of too much luck, I have heard complaints that there are "no moves" that you can use, that you just have to wait for the nuts. On the other hand, this sounds like many low limit hold 'em games I've played in, where people are so loose and call till the bitter end, you can't move them off a hand anyway. Either way, it's showdown poker. And of course, either way you can make money if your opponents are terrible.

Just from the responses here, it seems like the two forms worth playing are Omaha 8 and better for low or high, and for Omaha high, only if the limits are substantial or pot limit. Is the consensus then that Omaha high is crap when it is low limit? I played in an Omaha game once where the button had "Hi" and "Hi/Lo" on it, and whoever had the button could turn the button either way depending on what version they preferred for that hand. I didn't know the basics so I went back to hold 'em.

I do feel though that hold 'em can be very boring too. Yesterday I played 3 hours and the only playable hands I got were 22, 88, and AK, and ATs. FOR THREE HOURS. (I did not win with any of them, incidentally). This seems like it can happen a lot in hold 'em, and it gets very boring and aggravating at these times. So every game has its flaws, I guess. Thanks for the responses.


Tim

Jessica,


I think Omaha 8 or Better is a great game at the lower limits. Most of these low limit games are very profitable. If you study Ray's book, you will become a winner and I think it is much easier to become a winner at this game than any other form of poker in a public cardroom. Don't get me wrong, there are bad games too. THe bad games are usually filled with older players just playing the nuts. In these games you will not make much money.


At the lower limits you will not be able to knock people out of pots when five or more players regularly see the flop, so you have to have the best draws both ways. So, Omaha 8 or Better is a drawing game. You will not get into preflop battles like you do at hold'em. The maniacs in this game get punished for not playing good hands.


Ray's book is fine for beginners and advanced players. It's one of the few books out there that I believe is correct in how to think and play this game. Bob Ciaffone wrote a book called Omaha the Action Game. His book is more geared towards Omaha High, but is an excellent book as an introdution for the Hold'em player that is thinking about playing all forms of Omaha, so you may want to get this book too.


I think Ray's book is great and has made Omaha 8 or Better my favorite game. If you study the 22 Concepts and understand them you will do well. Futhermore, there is a section in this book called "Loose Games" which is very helpful for the lower limits. After you learn the 22 concepts you will want to continue with the rest of the book.


Good Luck


Mark

You convinced me - I'll buy it!

I find the LLO/8 games have to be terrible to be good. By this I mean an average of at least 6 players seeing each flop. Do you agree?

Try playing a Omaha/8 tournament. The tournament strategy adds a lot to the game. Once the limits go up you can make "moves" and have a lot more fun with it. All the good card reading and player evaluation make it just as interesting as other poker games.

The game may still be good with one or two less players seeing the flop.


In low limit Omaha players who see the flop tend to see the hand through much more than in Hold'em. Many week players will chase their low even though only one low card flops.