pre-flop - 2/4 pot limit omaha

[stripsqueez]

i'm new to this game (in a serious way) as i mentioned in a previous post and i am feeling my way through a variety of posistions

most of the time the school i play in seems loose pre-flop - often there are 5-6 limpers - i am not too sure what i should do when i get dealt KK or AA - my shorthanded hold'em background tells me that i am in front and therefore my natural instinct is to put as many chips as i am allowed or can find into the pot in part to narrow the field - this tactic has lost me $$ to date as there is always 1 or 2 players who will pay the extra money to see the flop and after that they either hit a draw or i am not willing to look at a big bet - it often felt like i had pulled the trigger too early - so i stopped throwing $$ into the pot everytime i got a big pair and started just calling pre-flop

i appreciate that just holding a "big" pair doesnt make a great pre-flop omaha hand and i appreciate that tactics with such hands will change depending on a variety of factors such as opposition and posistion - but - can someone walk me through a more experienced view of this posistion ??

[crockpot]

i wouldn't be inclined to escalate the size of the pot with these hands (without good sidecards), unless the other players in the game are the type to give up easily when they do not flop anything. though you will often still be ahead after the flop, you will have a difficult hand to play if you do not hit the flop.

i think that without good sidecards you are often better off just limping and hoping to either get a cheap flop or to reraise someone else who raises (with the aces).

[chaos]

You have four cards but are only mentioning what two of them are. Your stategy will depend on your entire hand not just half of it.

Depending on the other two cards I may either raise or fold. AA or KK with two uncordinated cards (say a 5 and an 8) would be a fold up front. I might call with it on the button for one bet hoping to flop a set. A hand like AAKQ double suited is worth a raise from any position.

Disclaimer: Pot-limit high-only Omaha is not my strongest game. (Limit hold'em and Omaha/8 are my regular games.) I only play it on rare occasions. So weight my advice accordingly.

[Buzz]

Stripsqueez - I'll echo the reply of Chaos and add a bit to it.

Basically, there has to be at least one king plus a pair (or two pairs or trips or quads) on the board for you to make a full house or better using a KK combination from your hand.. In a full, loose game, you'll probably generally need to make a straight or better to have much of a play for high.

Using any specific pair in your hand and counting all the hands you could possibly make, even those that might possibly make an opponent a better hand than you, there are only 153016 boards, out of a total of 1712304 possible boards, that make you a hand better than a straight. (Note that when you hold KKXX, some of these 153016 boards with a king and a pair, for example, KAA23, are very scary).

153016/1712304 = 0.089.

In other words, only 8.9% of the time when you hold KKXX, will you make a full house or better using your pair of kings. The other 91.1% of the time you won’t.. If you don’t count the very scary boards like KAA23, the number of favorable five card boards for your pair of kings makes is very close to an even eight per cent.

However, you might make something else using another two card combination.

Obviously, whatever else you might make with your KKXX hand would depend specifically on what XX was.

In a full game, in general, when you hold KKXX, you either like XX to be two other high cards (ten and above) or two wheel cards that might make you a nut low.. When you have a pair of kings, nothing other than two high cards or two unpaired wheel cards (unless a steal is feasable and you are trying to steal the blinds) is playable. Period. And note that a successful blind steal is virtually impossible in a loose low limit game. Suitedness is very important here. Although you might (I would) generally play KKA2-non-suited or KKAA-non-suited), you’d probably (I would) generally need KK24 or KKQQ to be at least single-suited, and you’d probably (I would) generally need KK25 or KKQJ to be double suited. Something like that. There are no rigid rules because so much depends on who your opponents are, how they’re playing, and how the game is going for you. 24XX and 25XX are trash low hands, but double suited to kings, in position, and with certain opponents, they can be playable. I probably would - but might not - play any two wheel cards from on the button or the small blind in a loose/passive game if they were double suited to a pair of kings.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[crockpot]

not to rain on your parade, but i believe the discussion is for high-only omaha. while your probability calculations are still good, the last paragraph about low sidecards is kind of a wash for this question.