Help me out, 40-80

[NYplayer]

As a function of running well for a few months (3BBs an hour or so) i've found that I've loosened up and need to get my discipline back. Has this ever happened to anyone, any tips or suggestions?

here are 4 examples.
1)In a 40-80 game where 3-5 players have been taking the flop (for a raise about 70% of the time), i limp UTG with 7c8c. i think this is too loose.

2) totally weak action player raises, thinking weak player raises to $120, i cold call with TT.

3) weak action player raises UTG, 3 players cold call, i cold call with QsJs.

4) this is from a 10-20 with a half kill game. there is a kill in the hand in late position and i raise with KTo UTG+1 because of the extra $15 in the pot hoping to play heads up.

In all four situations i got myself into some trouble post flop by connecting but not hitting big.

[Rushmore]

1)In a 40-80 game where 3-5 players have been taking the flop (for a raise about 70% of the time), i limp UTG with 7c8c. i think this is too loose.

Too loose, unless many flops are going down unraised (opponents weak, passive).

2) totally weak action player raises, thinking weak player raises to $120, i cold call with TT.

You'll hear some folks tell you to reraise here, and others tell you that calling is ok, too. To me, it would all depend on position, because even a "totally weak action player" will find a hand sometimes. If he's in late position, and the other guy is just trying to isolate, you could be ok with either reraising or calling. If this sequence came from utg and utg+1 or something, remember the solid player is aware of the fact that he could face a real hand behind him, so I'd let it go, as he's probably holding something worthwhile.

3) weak action player raises UTG, 3 players cold call, i cold call with QsJs.

No problem at all. But be prepared to get away from your hand if you flop top or second pair and someone's showing serious strength.

4) this is from a 10-20 with a half kill game. there is a kill in the hand in late position and i raise with KTo UTG+1 because of the extra $15 in the pot hoping to play heads up.

I hate this. This hand is absolute cheese, and not worth pushing for the extra $15. If you are 3-bet, you'll need to call, and then you're really praying, as many of "your" flops won't play well at all, and you'll be giving more of your chips away.

Just My Humble Opinions.

[hutz]

1)In a 40-80 game where 3-5 players have been taking the flop (for a raise about 70% of the time), i limp UTG with 7c8c. i think this is too loose.

This is an easy muck unless you expect several callers and no raise. You clearly couldn't have expected that type of play in the game you described.

2) totally weak action player raises, thinking weak player raises to $120, i cold call with TT.

I think this is an easy fold, as well. Even if you aren't dominated by at least one overpair, and both of them have overcards, how confident are you going to be when one or more face cards show up on the flop? If you decide to play in this situation, I believe you should pop it again. Cold-calling is the worst option.

3) weak action player raises UTG, 3 players cold call, i cold call with QsJs.

Depending on your position, this is either a fairly standard call (keeping in mind the post-flop concerns Rushmore pointed out) or a missed 3-bet opportunity (if you were in the cutoff or on the button, in particular).

4) this is from a 10-20 with a half kill game. there is a kill in the hand in late position and i raise with KTo UTG+1 because of the extra $15 in the pot hoping to play heads up.

Ugh. This should be a routine fold in a non-kill pot. If your opponents react as most do in a kill pot, it's an even easier muck. There's a discussion in, IIRC, the Psychology forum about the impact of kill pots on players in low and mid-limit games. You might want to check it out.

In 1, 2, and 4, you are likely in even worse shape than a typical 2+2 player would be in because your thinking/observant opponents will notice that you are playing looser than you should be. Therefore, you are more likely to face isolation raises when you act in early position (re: the KTo hand) and are less likely to receive respect when you raise/re-raise in late position (which might weigh in favor of simply cold-calling in hand #3).

[nykenny]

if u can beat Playstation game by 3BB / hr for 3 months, u are pretty good! anyway, my thoughts:

1) not that bad.. if 3-5 players see flop most of the time for one bet.

2)maybe muck? because i hate to call a weak player down the whole way after he three bets...

3)nothing wrong with this. be careful when flopping Q high board.

4)what the hell? u think u can run over these ppl cuz u come from 40-80 game? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

just my 2 pennies, but i barely beat that game for 1BB / hr, hehe. maybe i need to play there more...

[J.A.Sucker]

Any 40/80 game where 3-5 people see the flop for 1 bet most of the time is a great game, and I don't think that there are too many of these around. In a game that loose and passive, the 78s call is OK. If it's being raised, then this is a bad call, since the aggression will continue on later streets and you are gonna have to pay for draws.

I don't know of many (if any) people who can beat any 40/80 game for 1 BB/hr in the long run, although if the game is as good as you say, I'm moving to the Big Apple.

In hand #2 (TT), I still don't know what a "thinking weak player" is, though I suppose that he's weak tight. Weak tight players only 3-bet with better hands than TT, so folding is a clear play. However, I think that your read on this thinking weak player may be completely wrong, but this is just a hunch.

3. The QJs cold-call after a gazillion cold-callers is fine, though if you aren't on the button, 3 betting may be best. In fact, 3 betting is best if you think they'll put you on a much bigger hand than you have, but in loosie-goosie games, people don't like to fold decent hands at any time, so this play doesn't have as much merit, but may still be correct.

4. The KTo play is terrible. When there is more money in the pot, you should be LESS inclined to raise, since people will defend more often, and you need to hit to win. KT isn't gonna win a 4+ way pot (you're gonna usually see the killer and the BB in these spots) unimproved very often. You should be limping with more hands, due to the extra money, but raising is completely wrong. In fact, I don't even think that this hand is worth a limp, since it's now a 15-30 game. Maybe if the dude was posting his blind make-up behind the button I'd limp (though I would fold most of the time), but the blind money isn't much more than a normal 15-30 game.

I suspect that you were winning 3BB/hr because you were playing too many hands AND running good, and not that you are playing too many hands because you are running good. Just my opinion, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

[Diplomat]

...the same as J.A. Sucker's opinion, but he did a better job fleshing out the reasoning than I could, so I just concur. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

-Diplomat

[Lou Krieger]

[ QUOTE ]
As a function of running well for a few months (3BBs an hour or so) i've found that I've loosened up and need to get my discipline back. Has this ever happened to anyone, any tips or suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems you've loosened up because you've been running well and hitting your hands with greater-than-expected frequency. Now you've set up some expectation in your mind (though until recently you might not even have been aware of it) that this is going to continue, and although it may, we all know it probably won't, and in any event, this inordinate run of good fortune doesn't figure to continue in the long run.

Psychologically oriented questions, like how to get one's discipline back, are tough to answer because the answer is frequently different for each player. Moreover, it's tough for any player to admit -- even to himself -- that he's probably not as good as recent results would seem to suggest.

Nevertheless, we all tend to regress back to the mean over the long haul, and I suppose that awareness is one step in the process of getting your groove back. So is posting here because it is an acknowledgment of the need to make change, and awareness of any issue is the first step toward rectifying it.

While I don't have a pill you can take that's guaranteed to bring immediate relief, it seems like you are on the right path and taking the necessary steps to play the way you know you really ought to.

Hope this helps...

Lou Krieger

Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Poker For Dummies" at Royal Vegas Poker.
http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou

[Franchise (TTT)]

Welcome to 2+2.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Moreover, it's tough for any player to admit -- even to himself -- that he's probably not as good as recent results would seem to suggest.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to look at the glass as half-full. That's why I always assume that due to the inherent predictive inaccuracy of short-term results, I'm much better than recent results would seem to suggest.