Semi-bluff and bluff in one hand, heads up

[nykenny]

The following hand happened in late Friday night on PartyPoker in a 10-20 6 max game. How did I play each street? result to follow.

Total number of players : 6
Seat 1:
Seat 2: nykenny ( $664)
Seat 3:
Seat 4:
Seat 5: sunofafishy ( $787)
Seat 6:
drpizza posts small blind (5)
nykenny posts big blind (10)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to nykenny [ Ks, 6s ]
sunofafishy raises (20) to 20
nykenny calls (10)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2s, 3h, 4s ]
nykenny bets (10)
sunofafishy raises (20) to 20
nykenny raises (20) to 30
sunofafishy raises (20) to 40
nykenny calls (10)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2c ]
nykenny checks.
sunofafishy bets (20)
nykenny calls (20)
** Dealing River ** : [ 3c ]
nykenny bets (20)
sunofafishy raises (40) to 40

/images/graemlins/blush.gif what now?

[Franchise (TTT)]

I strongly suggest you fold.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/blush.gif what now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold.

[nykenny]

what range of hands do you put him on by now? what about the earlier streets? did i play badly?

Kenny

[Paluka]

If you think it is possible that you should call this raise on the river, you probably should not have bet the river.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
what range of hands do you put him on by now? what about the earlier streets? did i play badly?


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to nykenny [ Ks, 6s ]
sunofafishy raises (20) to 20
nykenny calls (10)

[/ QUOTE ]

Some would suggest folding here. That might be right. I've only played 5/10 online, but I imagine the 10/20 6-max players are similarly aggressive, so this could be a wide range of hands from CO. I'd probably see a flop. But yeah, folding is maybe probably correct. But I like flops and I overvalue things like suited Kings. But really K6s is garbage isn't it? Yeah, you should muck and find a better spot. But I'd probably call, 'cause otherwise you have to wait 'til the next hand and it's fun to defend your big blind w/ crap like this. At this point, I put him on two big cards or a pair or two other cards.

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2s, 3h, 4s ]
nykenny bets (10)
sunofafishy raises (20) to 20
nykenny raises (20) to 30
sunofafishy raises (20) to 40
nykenny calls (10)

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, I'll bet. This flop shouldn't fit for him. He raises? Hmmm... That could mean anything. With flush draw, gutshot straight draw, and an overcard, I'll 3-bet here as well. He 4-bets? OK. He probably has a real hand - an overpair (ie: any pocket pair) or a set or a straight. Or even just A4. But maybe he just has AK/AQ w/ As or nut flush draw. Or K5. Or QsJs.

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2c ]
nykenny checks.
sunofafishy bets (20)
nykenny calls (20)

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I think checking is fine here. But once you check-call here, it becomes much harder to win on the river without making your hand. I think a good case can be made for betting and calling a raise here.

[ QUOTE ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 3c ]
nykenny bets (20)
sunofafishy raises (40) to 40

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Total whiff. Maybe he can muck an Ace here? I'd fire out a desperation bet here, but that's exactly what it smells like after check-calling the turn, so he'll raise w/ a wide range of hands. Right around now is when I'd be thinking, damn, I wish I had bet the turn. Most times I can't help but fire out one last bet in the faint hopes he'll fold, but giving up here and check-folding is probably a reasonable option as well. And making a big King-high calldown is also an option. Maybe not a great one, but a fun one.

The problem w/ 3-betting here is that he may well call you with just an Ace, hoping for a chop. And he'll definitely call you w/ any semblance of a real hand - say 88 or A4. It sure doesn't seem like you have a 2 or 3.

The only hands I can see him mucking to a 3-bet are something like K5 or JsQs. And given the range of hands we have him on so far, I think it's more likely that he has at least Ace-high here. So, if you're thinking of 3-betting here, calling down is probably better, since he'll muck the hands that you beat anyway.

I think you played the hand fine. But you missed and he has position, aggression, momentum and probably a better hand all on his side.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think it is possible that you should call this raise on the river, you probably should not have bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that sentence pretty much covers the last 3 paragraphs in my response. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ulysses]

Paluka,

How about pre-flop and the turn?

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Paluka,

How about pre-flop and the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop call is easy in this style of game. The 6 max tables are uberaggressive. The turn is fine- you could try and checkraise again but this is getting expensive...

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

sunofafishy raises (20) to 20
nykenny calls (10)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2s, 3h, 4s ]
nykenny bets (10)
sunofafishy raises (20) to 20
nykenny raises (20) to 30
sunofafishy raises (20) to 40
nykenny calls (10)


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is too aggressive, you need to call his 3 bet here. at this point you have a nice draw, but I think he has a hand. I put him on a weak ace here, which means he either has a good draw or has paired his kicker.

[ QUOTE ]

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2c ]
nykenny checks.
sunofafishy bets (20)
nykenny calls (20)



[/ QUOTE ]

now you may well be drawing dead. I would have reverted to check-call mode for the rest of the hand here.

[ QUOTE ]

** Dealing River ** : [ 3c ]
nykenny bets (20)
sunofafishy raises (40) to 40


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like your bet here at all, and I think with 2 pair and a K high you should fold. in a B&M cardroom you might be able to call if you got a tell that makes you think he got counterfeited or something, but if he has any piece of the board or even A high he has you crushed. as someone else said, you shouldn't have bet the river if you can't call a raise with impunity. I would fold, if he can bluff raise you on the river like this then more power to him.

why did you bet here? you can't be bluffing, as clearly there is no way he is going to fold. are you betting for value?

It is hard to define his hand because of the preflop raise, in a ring game that will tell you something but shorthanded people (including me) will openraise with any playable hand.

--turnipmonster

[lockitup]

ummmm... exactly what hand can be counterfeited by that river?

I think at worst your opponent has an Ace. I think you played the hand fine, and I don't fault your river bet at all. But I think you have to fold to a raise.

However, if you know your opponent well enough to think he may bluff-raise the river in this spot, and I'm guessing you do since your debating whether to call or fold the river, check-calling may be better. It doesn't look like he'll ever fold a better hand, but he'll bet with a lot of worse hands.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
ummmm... exactly what hand can be counterfeited by that river?


[/ QUOTE ]

exactly none. I'm an idiot! in addition to being an idiot, I haven't had enough coffee today. still don't like the river bet.

--turnipmonster

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop call is easy in this style of game. The 6 max tables are uberaggressive. The turn is fine- you could try and checkraise again but this is getting expensive...

[/ QUOTE ]

What about betting out on the turn?

[nykenny]

thanks for all the feedback thus far. it puzzles me that no one really questioned what hand my opponent could be holding at this point following the action sequence.

For me, i did make the river bet as a bluff (completing what i represented on the flop - a HAND) thinking "no way i am getting raised here!"... and BANG! he raised me without thinking for more than 3 secs. However, i was puzzled, and very unhappy about his raise.

I thought for a good moment and considered reraising (call me crazy), but eventually settled for just calling (call me INSANE!). He turned over T7s for the lower busted flush draw and I dragged the not-too-small headsup pot. and saved the hand history in shock.

all comments and thoughts are welcome.

[nykenny]

Thanks Ulysses.

sorry i didn't see this well-composed post before i put up the results. you have stated what's very close to my thinking at the time of my decision. and i did call and won. hehe.

nicely put.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
it puzzles me that no one really questioned what hand my opponent could be holding at this point following the action sequence.

I thought for a good moment and considered reraising (call me crazy), but eventually settled for just calling (call me INSANE!).


[/ QUOTE ]

From my earlier post:

And making a big King-high calldown is also an option. Maybe not a great one, but a fun one.

I also mentioned that busted flush draw is a possibility for him, in which case calling is better than 3-betting. But given the way the hand played out and the range of hands he might have, I think that this is probably a -EV call (based on the action, I don't this one's all that hard to actually quantify if you really cared to go through hands).

The point of my initial comment, though, was that the fun of making a King-high calldown here and taking it down vs. a lower flush draw probably far overrides any -EVness that may be present. And you're right, he may well think you're INSANE now, which I think is a great advantage for you!

[mikelow]

1. Don't use hand histories--they're hard to follow.
2. Fold preflop.
3. Fold on the river. You can't beat an ace.

[mikelow]

Must be a great game to play in. Maybe for image his call was correct, but I think it's a losing action in the long run.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe for image his call was correct, but I think it's a losing action in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it's a losing action in the long run and I don't think that image considerations can overcome the unprofitability of the call. I think the only reason to call is because it's really fun to call down w/ King-high and win in a situation like this.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Don't use hand histories--they're hard to follow.


[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I agree. But FWIW, heads-up with the extraneous crap deleted as kenny did, I think the hand history was very clear and easy to follow here.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

INSANE!). He turned over T7s for the lower busted flush draw and I dragged the not-too-small headsup pot. and saved the hand history in shock.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have been shocked also. your opponent played it worse than you. I still think it was a bad river bet, as there is just no way he's going to fold here, and you don't like getting raised or even getting called for that matter. IMO a check call (as much as I hate doing it) is the play that gets the money in this spot.

--turnipmonster

[Franchise (TTT)]

[ QUOTE ]
what range of hands do you put him on by now? what about the earlier streets?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it really matters. He has you beat, probably by an A or an overpair.

Notice that every chance he's had he's bet or raised. He has NEVER taken the passive route. Unless you know beforehand he's a total maniac, or that you've been playing unsually weak, then you should fold here.

On the other hand, if you do feel he's taking shots at you, earlier in the hand is probably a better place to figure that out, than being raised on the river and wondering. Specifically, bet the turn, or check-call the river.

Nice pot though, congrats.

[nykenny]

hehe. u do have great insights as usual. thanks for the reply.

[nykenny]

i am not sure how bad it is long run.

But how often am i going to get raised here? What hands can raise again?

how often can i push off A high or K high here?

how do u like his re-bluff on river?

and this was the first time i played with him and i had no clue how he played.

Kenny

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
i am not sure how bad it is long run.


[/ QUOTE ]

your opponent has shown maximum aggression the entire hand. either he is an idiot, or he has a hand. you are going to get raised anytime he has a boat, which on this board given his play is likely. if he doesn't have a boat, he is going to probably call you with an A high, you played this too much like a flush draw in this spot. he may also have a better pocket pair, but that's less likely.

according to s&m, in order to bet the river in this spot you have to have the best hand about 55% of the time you are called to make that bet a "good bet". do you think that 55% of the time he is going to call you with a lower busted flush draw, which at this point is the only thing you can beat?

[ QUOTE ]

But how often am i going to get raised here? What hands can raise again?
how often can i push off A high or K high here?


[/ QUOTE ]

what on earth makes you think, after the way he played the rest of the hand, he is going to fold for one more bet? I just don't see him folding here.

[ QUOTE ]

how do u like his re-bluff on river?


[/ QUOTE ]

I like it a lot.

--turnipmonster

[nykenny]

I like his rebluff too! a lot! made extra $20, woohoo!

anyway, i don't think this hand matters that much since not many people are capable of this fearsome river re-bluff /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif