Heated Discussion A8s

[SoBeDude]

15-30

You're on the button with A8s. There is one LMP limper to you.

blinds are playing many hands, you don't think a raise will get it heads-up with the limper, but it will probably end up 3-way.

Whats your play preflop?

Call? raise? Fold?

Thanks

-Scott

[Vehn]

There's nothing to discuss. You raise. Period. Anyone who says otherwise will never beat mid limit games, has poor personal hygiene, and are dressed by his or her mother.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Vehn:

Except I frequently call in these spots. Now on the flop if you flop nothing but it gets checked to you your bet will frequently take it.

If you kicker was higher I would certainly raise. If your hand was lower I would certainly call (assuming it is still playable). So this hand is sort of on the borderline. That's where other factors should come into play.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Paluka]

I lean towards raising, but calling isn't awful. Folding seems insane.

[tpir90036]

how would the answer change if you had JTs instead with only one limper to you? does folding now become an option?

[mike l.]

"how would the answer change if you had JTs instead with only one limper to you? does folding now become an option?"

i raise all the time with the JTs and A8s here. but the most important thing i think is for folding (and calling although i see little point in that) to always remain an option. i want to at any point for any reason to be able to freely fold any hand from any position. and i dont want to have to fold AA before the flop to realise i am capable of that sort of play.

[Tyler Durden]

Good post, nearly flawless. There's no 's' in realize.

[brad]

'There's no 's' in realize.'

hes saving his voice hes got a concert

[Vehn]

It was kinda a joke, but frankly the only time I would consider limping in here in a 2/3 blind chip game would be if I was positive both blinds would call my raise.

And yes Clarkmeister I realize this is directly opposite to what I said in an identical question a year and a half ago when I was a sniviling low limit wimp.

[Gabe]

I usually just call with this hand in the situation you describe here in a Los Angeles area 15-30 or 20-40. The main problem with raising against these types of players is when they check to you on the flop. Do you bet if you don’t improve? Did they check to you because they missed?

Let’s say for example the player in the big blind always defends. Let’s say he’ll just call all the way to the end with any pair. Let’s also say that he will draw to anything up to and including a back door draw, as long as there was a raise before the flop. This player sounds like he’s playing pretty bad, but against AXs he’s not playing too bad at all. (If he gives up some of his weak stuff if an Ace flops, he’s kind of playing good.)

Against loose players I try too raise less with Ax pre-flop and pick it up after the flop. This is particularly true against two loose guys. If these guys sometimes bluff the river, I believe raising pre-flop is a definite mistake.

[andyfox]

I don't think this pre-flop decision should generate that much heat. For me, the hand is too good to fold, so I raise. After all, I probably have the best hand and I hve the button. But I could see the argument for calling in 15-30. As Mason pointed out, it's sometimes easier to win with a flop bet if you call rather than raise. And I don't think one's game would suffer all that much, if at all, if one folded. After all, you have a piece of cheese.

[mike l.]

"hes saving his voice hes got a concert"

lol. i prefer the british spelling. i think it's more sophisticated.

cheers, mike

[Rick Nebiolo]

Even if you won't often isolate, you should often be raising a single limper with most of your playable hands. You gain control and rarely trap yourslef acting last.

~ Rick

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Vehn:

In general, you should be more inclined to limp in a 2/3 chip game than in a 1/2 chip game. Do you see why? (You should also be more likely to three bet in the 2/3 chip game.)

Best wishes,
Mason