Middle Limit Holdem/Ciaffone

Someone posted a review about this book a couple of weeks ago and I thought i would give my two cents worth. This is an excellent book which every serious holdem player should add to their collection. In terms of value, I would rate this as one of the top 3 books I have read (out of about 20). In fact, if I was to recommend books to someone starting out I would suggest the following: 1/ Theory of Poker - Sklansky 2/ Advanced Holdem - Sklansky 3/ Middle Limit - Ciaffone. It is best to read them in that order. Theory gives the overview of important poker concepts. Advanced Holdem gives specific theory and strategies for Holdem. Middle Limit gives you practical examples to "test" your knowledge of the theory and strategies.


Middle Limit is basically about 500 actual hands which Ciaffone/Brier analyze. They suggest the proper moves and discuss the reasons why including a good discussion on pot odds and seat position for each each. I learned a great deal from these explanations. For example, I had been suspecting for several months that I called too many checkraises on the turn. I learned quickly that this is indeed probably the case and learned new things to think about when making these types of decisions. So in my case, I learned my biggest weakness is on the turn, some weaknesses on the flop, and my preflop and river play is very good.


The book does lack in actual theory and strategy explanation. There are discussions about strategies preceeding the examples but these discussions are by no means a complete discussion of the topic. That is why Advanced Holdem is necessary reading.


In regard to the actual hand analyses and explanations, I think it is inevitable to create some arguments/discussions on some of the recommendations presented. One problem is that they are dealing with a "typical" player. By he end of the book, I believe this typical player means a typically good player. I was in disagreement with some of the "answers" based on my experiences on the internet. There are some loose/aggressive players where folding does not make sense where they recommended a fold. There are no examples for play against maniacs, loose players, overly aggressive players, etc. However, out of 500 hands I would probably say that I was only in complete disagreement for about 10 hands. So I believe this is normal.


The only other slight problem with the hand analyses are some of the decisions made prior to the decision that the problem is evaluating. For example, there is a group of problems about turn decisions. A hand example might read, you limp in with 87s in early position...I would have liked little footnotes for when they were in disagreement to decisions of the hand made prior to the final decision they are discussing. In this example they could put "questionable call" and then proceed with the rest of the example.


Overall excellent reading and GREAT value. So beware everybody, next time I am checkraised on the turn I will first evaluate if you are a "typical" player or not and then make my decision accordingly. No more leaks!

"Middle Limit is basically about 500 actual hands which Ciaffone/Brier analyze"


-Apparently not quite 500, according to Ciaffone.

Though I have mixed feelings about this book, I agree that this is must reading particularly for players who are either new to the game or new to mid limit hold 'em. A newbie to mid limit poker who has read this book will play a lot better than someone who has not; the book will help such a person avoid developing a whole bunch of leaks that new players generally exhibit at the tables.


In that respect, I suggest that such players read this book first before reading HPFAP. HPFAP is IMO the best hold 'em book out there but IMO it is simply not going to help new players that much; In fact, it may serve to screw 'em up (the book is aptly titled in that it is for *advanced* players).


Now, for the negative on Jim's/Bob's book from my own perspective: If you play well enough to understand the principles in Theory of Poker and HFPAP, this book ain't gonna help you. I have read the book in its entirety. In the early stages of the book, I found some helpful passages particularly in the text of the book (as opposed to the problems). But as I kept reading, I found myself disagreeing with the analysis on scores of the problem hands. This is probably because I think that the typical player I face is much different than the typical player that Jim and Bob have in mind.


The reasoning employed to discuss the problems is fairly sound as far as what it considers but IMO, the reasoning often does not consider all of the things that you need to consider in mid limit holdem games. There simply is too much emphasis on reading the board and determining how

your outs may be devalued as opposed to reading your opponents' hands and their thoughts. There also seems to be a mindset of always thinking

the worst i.e. if we call, all these bad things can happen etc. and not enough on the positives i.e. if we bet or raise, we increase our chances of winning the pot; if we call or raise, that may give our opponents some pause etc. Also, not enough attention is paid to pot odds that

would often dictate that you continue on with a hand rather than throwing in the towel early.


Bottom line from my perspective: It's a very good book if you are:


a. New to the game or new to mid limit poker and need some guidance on avoiding leaks and playing fundamentally sound poker.


b. barely beating your mid limit game and aspire to fix your leaks and beat the game for 1 sb an hour.


However, my impression is that following the advice given in the book to the tee will not make you a winner in the range of 1 big bet an hour. The advice and general approach to handling poker problems is too conservative and risk-aversive to enable you to do that. But of course, you gotta learn how to walk before you can run. This book does a better job helping you learn to walk than does HFPAP. But, when you are ready to run, TOP and HPFAP are the nuts.

I do feel that one thing missing from HPFAP was more real game examples. The advantage to reading HPFAP first is you can disect the hands better and think more as you are reading MLH. I agree, it is somewhat a "beginner Midlle Limit: book - but along with the Feeney book I found these great books to re-tool my game and find some potential leaks. I do think further analysis of many of the hands on 2+2 would be very valuable, to determine how situations fit into different game conditions.

skp, it sounds like you had some of the same problems I had, the typical opponent they have is not the same as the typical opponent I have. I play mostly on the internet (one BB an hour at 2040), and do find that there are many more "weak" players than the typical player they talk about. But as you say, Overall this is still really good reading as long as you have enought experience to think yourself.


i think you are right, following the advice in this book will definately make you a winning player. Going a little beyond the advice with true advanced play and good knowledge of your opponents will net you a little more money.


I think beginning players who have not read Sklansky would not understand all the hand examples thoroughly to comprehend them. This is a book definately aimed at middle limit players or at least players with middle limit knowledge.


Matthew

On the best order for reading these books, I suppose that a complete newbie cannot start with Jim's book because basics such as position, starting hands etc. are omitted by design. But a newbie to mid limit poker can and IMO should start with Jim's book rather than HFPAP.


Let me put it another way: Let's assume that you have been playing at the free money tables for a couple of months on Paradise and have figured out the mechanics of the game etc. You now want to learn a little strategy to beat the 10-20 game. You could start at 3-6 but you figure that you can withstand losing a little for the first little while so you step right into 10-20. I would then say skip reading HFPAP. The stuff will be way over your head. Maybe you ought to get the Jones book (which I have not read) or the Krieger books to learn a little about starting hands etc. As for flop play and beyond, get the Brier book. Once you have got yourself into a groove in the 10-20 and want some advanced strategies, go to TOP and HFPAP. Those books will make a lot more sense then.


I remember reading HFPAP when I first started playing HE in 1996. It was the first HE book I had read. My head was spinning with all the seemingly contradictory advice found there. I read it again in 1997, it made more sense. I read it again a couple of years ago and started to really appreciate how good it is. I think I only read TOP in 1999 or so. I am pretty sure that stuff would also have been over my head had I read it in 1996 when I first started out.


Of course, brighter bulbs than Yours Truly may find HFPAP and TOP to be perfectly comprehensible without having played a hand of poker...I don't know.

"more real game examples"


if you want real game examples then i have a suggestion that is far better than any book that gives you just viewpoint on how to play specific hands.


this site. the "real game examples", many posted every day on here with a built in question and answer format and loads of winning professional players of all sorts willing to give their two cents (Actual value far exceeding that and by far exceeding any book).

funny how those 2 + 2 books get better with successive reading over time, lol, just points out how becoming a truly advanced player takes thought, advice, study, practice, and tincture of time...gl

hi