PLOH against a World Champion...your move

[34TheTruth34]

Your are a playing a medium-sized pot limit omaha high (PLOH) game. Both you and your opponent have over a grand in front of you. Your opponent, by the way, is a former World Champion not exactly known for his ring game skills.

Your hand is A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif

The flop came Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif-7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif-3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

You bet a very small amount with your nut flush draw and get called.

The turn is 2/images/graemlins/club.gif

You check, he checks.

The river is 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

You bet $150 and he raises it to $350.


Do you:

a.) play back at him for all your money since you almost certainly have the best hand

b.) fold, as the only hand he could possibly be raising you with is the straight flush

c.) just call, because if he's messing around he won't call your reraise, but if he actually has the straight flush, he will bust you.

Your move...

[crockpot]

wasn't this hand in hellmuth's book?

i do like the subtlety in describing the world champ's ring game shortcomings.

[Guy McSucker]

Probably call.

Guy.

[Graham]

Nobody's making me throw away the nut flush. I'd call and then be pissed off that I didn't min raise him when he show's me the 2nd or 3rd flush.

(Actually, I'm lying; I'd raise him the minimum anyway - esp if I thought he could be playing sucker enough to raise without the nut flush). Bully to him if he has the straight flush...he still has to show it to me though, so he's getting my stack in that case.

G

[Ian M.]

I'm not a pot limit omaha expert, but I think your betting pattern looks like you may be trying to buy the pot. I would call the raise.

[Graham]

btw, I'd have bet larger on the flop and - although unhappy at being called on the flop - very likely have bet the turn as well, when the innocuous 2c fell. Fire that 2nd barrel, like Bob says...

[DaNoob]

Unless I had a really good reason to believe that he would be in this hand with 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif to begin with, I'm pushing my whole stack in. If I think there's a chance he might have those cards (free ride in BB, or SB), I at least call.

Then again, I don't play big bet poker against world champions, so I might be way out of line here. Against a normal player, there are too many hands that I have beat that would make this raise.

[Matt Flynn]

After saying "world champion" you'd have to work hard to get me to do anything other than call. Raising is the worst option. You will not get called unless you are beat or you've been on crazy moneky tilt and he's drunk enough to misread you that badly. For folding to be reasonable you'd have to give more information along the lines of him rarely bluffing or only raising the river with the nuts or near-nuts, which would be highly unlikely in a former world champion.

Matt

[Guy McSucker]

there are too many hands that I have beat that would make this raise.

That's not a reason to raise, it's a reason to call.

To make a raise worthwhile you have to think you can either get a better hand to fold - impossible - or a worse hand to call - unlikely.

Guy.

[Acesover8s]

Its hard to tell what to do without knowing the position of your opponent, the preflop action, etc.

For example, if this is a full game, and you raised big on the button, a hand your opponent may full well call you with is 4567 with the requisite straight flush diamonds. However, most players (especially poor playing world champions) would lead at that flop with that hand, as well they should.

His river raise is a very suspect amount, most players would raise the max with a straight flush knowing that the nut flush will call.

In a heads up pot if your opponent wants to play passive, then push him around, if he hit the 1 card that might break you, you can only blame yourself.

I reraise here 100% of the time, unless I know specifically that my opponent would make this move with a bare K (or 6), or that he would fold that King or Queen flush here. Many players will not, praying you're on the bare A yourself.

[DaNoob]

Good point. I didn't think about it in those terms. I'm used to low limit NLHE, where people will call re-re-raises with much less than the mortal nuts.

[tewall]

Where the guy folded his Ace high flush to a straight flush and said something like, "I wasn't born yesterday. I know how to lay down a good hand."

[crockpot]

given that i'm playing the hand against hellmuth, i'm torn...having seen his ring game skills, he's capable of calling preflop with the 64 of diamonds and then calling the flop bet with one out, but he's also capable of making a ridiculous river raise and calling the resulting all in with a low flush.

of course, i know hellmuth has the straight flush, so what am i mulling over?

[34TheTruth34]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my question. As some of you figured out, this hand came from Phil Hellmuth's book. Some of you questioned the details as to whether the hand started heads up, position, other cards, etc. and the answer is that I don't know. I had to fudge some of the details because they weren't provided in the book.

So anyway, Hellmuth had the straight flush and was the one that made the raise. His opponent immediately threw the hand away and said something to Phil like, "what, do you think I was born yesterday?? Don't you know that I know how to throw a good hand away??". Phil then credited his opponents' "great" laydown. Now maybe this is just me, but I think this is an easy call. And judging from the responses, you think it is too. Is that the correct thinking, or are we just thinking like stupid hold 'em players?? Are we really supposed to make this laydown??

[bugstud]

The reasoning in omaha was that given that he held the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif that Phil wouldn't raise on a baby flush since his betting pattern pretty much gave away the hand, and the raise had to be on the straight flush. All I know is, if I had any hand against that guy and a flush made (with straight flush possible) I'd raise the guy over and over again.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

No, you're not supposed to make this laydown, not unless the opponent is well known to you, and you are really that sure that he wouldn't raise in this spot without the straight flush (since he can't have the A high flush, nor even the bare A bluff).

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[crockpot]

i think hellmuth could have made a much better example than this. here, you have to assume your opponent called on a one-out shot, unless his other two cards are a set or top two pair, in which case he should have bet the turn. and frankly, most PLO professionals play so aggressively that i would call here anyway, although i might not reraise.

hellmuth really should have used an example of a pro throwing away his king high flush, which i would do in that situation. i think he just made it more contrived to prove a point about PLO.

[joeg]

I would raise here, I personaly bluff the lone ace quite often it would probably not be a big mistake for a king high flush to call here. Also from what I gather both players have invested approx $400 into the pot so the raise would put me all in, if the money was a lot deeper and I thought I'd have to worry about a large reraise I would just call, but then I'm only just begining to learn omaha so I'm probably wrong

[Guy McSucker]

I personally bluff the lone ace quite often

Fair enough, but I really think that a bluff reraise with the lone ace is a mistake, and I think your opponent will realise this and therefore be able to dump the king flush if you make the reraise.

Guy.