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davidross
09-28-2003, 03:25 PM
Wow. I’m really pushing the variance envelope here. After a poor week brought on by bad results at Paradise, Sunday went the exact same way. Playing 2 tables of 5/10 at Paradise I lost another $626, making the weekend loss almost $1,100. I’m going crazy. Fortunately, at the same time on 2 3/6 tables I won an incredible $706 in 6 hours of play, putting me up almost $1300 for the weekend at Party. Then after a break even Monday afternoon at Party, Monday night started out looking like a disaster, I had to rebuy at both sites in the first half hour, and at paradise I was down another $300, putting me down $1400 for 3 nights and over $1600 for the previous week. Then the dark clouds parted and the sun shone through. Just as I had decided to cash out the rest of my account and switch to Empire my hands started holding up, and I started hitting my draws and I went on an $800 rush that left me up $546 at paradise. I even made a comeback at Party to finish down only $140 there for a win of $400. So for the 2 days I’m up $480. And the sun is shining again.

Clearly the variance of the 5/10 game is making me uncomfortable. And there are not many weak players in the paradise games. I love the paradise software and support, and I’m nostalgic because it’s where I learned the game, but this is a business for me now and clearly the smart thing for me to do is stop playing there. I can play 4 games using another site and Empire seems to make sense. I can still play 5/10 if I want at party and Empire. Can anyone comment on the games there? Are the Empire games the same quality wise as the Party games?

I’ve had 7 people offer to have me sign up under their affiliate programs at Empire. Obviously I can only choose 1 and I hope the rest of you understand that I can only use 1 of you.

I received an e-mail from Party investigations regarding my bonehead move from last week that I posted about in the internet forum. Posting it was even stupider I guess because they tell me that several people brought it to Party’s attention. If you missed it I was playing with the same 2 players on 2 tables. On table 1 a woman who’s play was suspect was running over the table hitting everything. The 3 of us were chatting about it on table 2 saying things like omg she did it again. Then I flopped a set of 6’s against her on table 1. The board however was all hearts. I told the guys on table 2 that I might get her this time, I’ve got a set. When I went back to table 1 I realized to my horror that 1 of the 2 players was still in the hand, and I’d just told him my hand. To make it worse he had flopped a flush, and the turn paired the board filling me up. He check folded to my turn bet and the woman stayed to the river losing to my full house. Clearly there was no intent to cheat, but I gave information to one player that not everyone had and it’s inexcusable. Thankfully Party chose to reprimand me only. I hope I’ve learned my lesson.

Hopefully we are always learning in this game and I want to focus on my blind play in the short term. Usually if I flop top pair I don’t worry very much about my kicker. I play premium cards so I usually have the best kicker. If I lose the occasional KJ to KQ so be it. But from the blinds I quite often find myself with top pair and a lousy kicker. I tend to play it as if it’s a normal hand and bet out, but then go into check/call if I’m raised, and usually lose to a better hand. I think I need to be willing to fold to those flop raises more often, especially if there are no draws on the board. Or even check/raise those top pair hands depending on where the bet comes from.

I got wiped out by one horrible 5/10 player on Sunday night. I’m sure this one guy was responsible for $400 of my 600 dollar loss. He was 2 seats to my left and kept either drawing out on me, or dominating me with AA vs KK and the like. This was one of the hands.

Bad player limps UTG and aggressive guy raises. 1 cold caller, and the SB calls. I have AQo in the BB and just call. Flop is Ad Qd 4c. I am running just horrible at this point and I bet right out. Nothing fancy. BP calls and so does AG. Turn is 8h. I bet and both call again. River is 8s. I bet, BP raises and AG calls. BP makes all kinds of weird plays, so AG will call this with KK or AK. I call too. BP had 86o. This is paradise 5/10. Sigh. He did this to me only it seemed for hours. I hope I see him again, but I don’t think his bankroll will last.

10 minutes later I have QQ in MP. UTG raises and I 3 bet. BP calls 3 cold with KTo (it’s more fun if you know what he has). 3 of us see the flop of A 5 4 rainbow. UTG checks, I bet and BP raises. UTG folds and I sigh and call. I can raise for value, but he wont fold so I thinkit’s better to just call down these guys. I don’t think a free card can hurt me at this point. Turn is a T. I check he bets and I call. River is another T. Check – Bet – call – another sigh.

Tuesday night was the kiss of death for Paradise. Another terrible start with no recovery and a $360 loss. I won $400 at Party to give me a small win for the day, but immediately after quitting for the day I withdrew enough from my paradise account to start up an Empire account.

Everyone who plays poker has a competitive instinct. In some people this competitive instinct can be their downfall by pushing them to keep competing long after logic should have told them they were beat. We applaud the athlete who keeps getting up to try again, but in poker it can be a destructive trait. I am convinced I can beat the paradise 5/10 game. I beat it for months, and even in the 4 weeks I started playing it again I was up $1,000 despite the horrible last 10 days. But it’s time to be realistic. 1) it’s not the same game. The old fish have gone broke, and the new fish are going to Party. It’s the same faces night after night and most of them are good, and a few of them are very very good. 2) I can beat the party 3/6 for more money despite the smaller stakes, or at least have less chance of losing. Paradise has better support, and their cashouts are almost immediate. I cashed out from both Paradise and Party on Saturday night at around 3:00 AM (Sunday morning actually). Paradise had the money in my Neteller account at 7:00 AM Sunday. After I contacted my “Executive Hostess” at Party on Tuesday, they made my depost in 15 minutes late Tuesday night. Party has never made a transfer for me without my having to call them. They say they have an internal review to do for all cashouts that takes 24-48 hours. I will miss Paradise, but until they get some fresh blood in there I’m gone.

So Wednesday morning I opened my Empire account under a disguised name, which I will keep secret for now. I have decided to play 4 3/6 games both afternoon and evening for now. Maybe everyone else knew this but I did not, Party and Empire actually share the tables. I thought they were two different sites using the same software, but it’s just 1 big site as I found out when I tried to sit at the same table with davidross. The software is sophisticated enough to recognize that we are the same person and wouldn’t let me. So it’s the same games I love so much, only in blue. I played for 3 ½ hours in the afternoon, breaking even on my Empire tables and winning $100 on the Party tables. It was interesting to play completely anonymously, but I didn’t play any of the 2+2’ers anyway. The evening got off to a disastrous start. I rebought on 3 of 4 tables within 30 minutes of starting, and rebought again on one of the tables an hour later. But I got real hot on the remaining tables and won $550 an the empire tables, plus my $100 sign up bonus kicked in after 500 hands. I lost $230 on the Party tables but had a very comfortable $520 day putting me up $1,050 for the week despite being down $450 at paradise.

I had an interesting exchange under my alias on the following hand. I limped behind a couple of other guys with As 2s in LP. Another limper behind me then the BB raised. 5 of us saw the flop for 2 bets each. Flop was 8 6 2, no spades. BB checked and EP bet, got a call and I decided to call too. I’m getting 12 to 1 at least on the call and have 5 outs probably. I don’t think that’s overly loose. The guy on my left raises, BB folds and we all call. Turn is an A. I bet into the raiser who raises me again and fearing A8 I just call. I check call the river and beat his 86. He and another player start moaning about my calling his raise when I was a 20-1 underdog etc etc. He claimed his raise should have told me he had 2 pair or a set, and when I asked how I was supposed to know what he had, he told me it was just math. I’m not kidding. It was kind of fun.

I complained yesterday to Party support about a possible all-in abuse. It was a very small pot, where I flopped top pair from the blind with something like T2 on a T 5 3 board, and everyone folded to the button who timed out. River brought a K which made his hand good and he won a $15 pot. He was out for the next hand and right back in after that. I asked if he was having connection problems and he said yes, sorry. I sent it off to support and got an e-mail back this morning saying they reviewed all of his all-ins and suspect a pattern of abuse. They have warned him and restricted his reset ability. Of course I’m not getting any money back.

Betting into a scary board. I’m not sure what the lesson is here. I limp under the gun with 88, and the limping frenzy begins. 7 of us see the flop. Flop is 9 9 5 rainbow. Not the worst flop for me. After the blinds check I bet. Everyone folds to the button who just calls. In these games that scares me as usually everyone slow plays. Only 2 of us see the turn. Turn is a 3, completing rainbow. I bet again and he raises. I hate folding heads up, but it sure seems I’m beat here. Knee-jerk reaction though is to click call and my 8 comes on the river. I check raise him and he had K9. It’s easy to say he should have raised the flop and the slow play cost him, but when he raises me on the turn I’m getting 7 ½ to 1 on my call, not nearly enough to spike my 8 so I think his waiting for the turn is the correct play. And I’m not sure I would fold to the flop raise anyway, suspecting a play. So probably just an example of a suck-out.

A tough fold. My first Empire hand history. I open raise in EP with Ad Qc. Button cold calls and SB completes. BB folds. Flop is the lovely Ac As 6h. No slow play for me I bet out. Button raises and SB cold calls. Hmm. Even my simple math tells me there aren’t enough aces to go around, and there are no draws on the board. Maybe a pocket pair that doesn’t believe the A is out there. I 3 bet, button caps and SB calls again. If we were heads up I’d believe the button had an A and take my chances, but what could the SB have? It’s certainly starting to look like Ax in the blind, and 66 on the button. But I’m still not certain. Turn is a 2. I bet into him one more time, he raises and SB calls 2 more cold. I call again. River is a J. We check to the button who bets, and now the SB raises. Ding. Finally I fold and the button doesn’t believe it so he raises again and the SB caps it. He of course had AJ. Button did indeed have 66. I would have been prouder of my hand reading if I could have laid down to the turn raise, but I did save a couple of bets. And if I laid down on the turn and the Q had rivered…..

I have always been a huge sports fan. Hockey was my first love and I grew up in Montreal during the Canadiens hey day. I was 8 when the Expos joined the National league and my dad had season tickets for many years. I used to know all the players in all the leagues. Something happened over the last few years, it’s probably called life, and I no longer follow professional sports as closely. I still watch games now and then, but I don’t know half the players on any teams anymore. Maybe it’s players strikes or over inflated salaries or free agency. More likely I’ve just become more interested in my kids sports, because love watching amateur sports. I watch the local high school football team, and I took my kids to watch the city soccer teams this summer. The Olympics are the ultimate to me, especially the track and field, and the world cup of soccer is another favorite. Something about people competing for the sake of competing I guess. So my favorite team in the world right now is the Canadian women’s soccer team. I fell in love with them last summer when the under 19 world cup was held in Canada and the team went on an amazing tear only losing in the finals to a powerhouse American team on penalty kicks. Most of that team now plays for our national team and a lot of people thought that 2007 would be the year for this young team. One girl, Christine Sinclair is already the 6th ranked player in the world at age 19 and is clearly the future for our program along with a 16 year old from the town next to me. I have been so looking forward to the Women’s World cup which started last Saturday. We lost to Germany in the first game which was expected, but can still advance to the quarter finals with wins over Argentina and Japan. What was disappointing was how easily the Germans controlled the game, but I was hoping it was just jitters. We played Argentina last night and won 3-0, but again played terribly. We now have to beat Japan on Saturday to advance, a tie puts them through because they beat Argentina 6-0. I postponed my poker for 2 hours last night to watch the game, that’s how important it was.

Just when I thought I had turned a corner I got smacked down again. Thursday and Friday were the worst 2 days I’ve ever had, losing the proverbial 200 BB’s that we’re supposed to keep for such emergencies. I dropped over 700 on Thursday, all on my empire tables, and another 360 on Friday. I’m so frustrated it’s ridiculous. The only thing that helps is I went back and re-read my posts form my last 2 weeks of hell in June, and it made me realize that there isn’t much I can do about it except keep playing well. Saturday was a struggle for most of the evening until I finally went on a rush around 1:00 AM and managed to win $500. I finished the week up $464 for the 2nd straight disappointing week. But if I compare it to the 2 bad weeks in June when I lost $2,300 in 2 weeks this is miles better than that. My party tables had a good week, but Paradise and Empire killed me. The empire is just chance, since it’s the same tables as Party, but I’ll be curious to see if my results are affected at all by people not knowing me as davidross.

My Canadian girls played great last night in beating Japan, so we move on to the quarter finals against the winner of the Russia China match today.

What can you do. This is a perfect example of what happens to you when you’re running bad. I open raise in MP with AQo and only the BB plays. Flop is A T 5, 2 hearts. I bet and get check-raised by the BB. I 3 bet and he caps. Uh oh here we go again. Turn is the 9s. He bets and I just call. River is the Qh giving me my 2 pair, but putting what I suspect is his flush on board, so I just call his bet. He shows J8o for the straight. He 4 bet the flop with nothing, then went runner runner heads up. Sigh.

I lost to rivered sets 5 times on Thursday/Friday. Those are 2 outers. Then this hand came along. This is pretty wild.

I have AA in the SB and UTG raises. It is 3 bet from the button and I cap it. BB calls as do the other 2. Flop comes Ah Kh Tc. That’s probably hit someone. I bet, get called in 2 places and the button raises. I 3 bet, get called twice and the button caps it. We all call. Turn is the 3h. I bet into the flush board, one call and one fold and the button raises again. I finally slow down and just call. River is the ugly 9h putting 4 hearts on board. UTG now bets out and button raises. I swear, look for the dog who is way ahead of me and left the room, and finally come to my senses and fold saving 2 bb’s. UTG calls. Button wins it with a set of Kings. OMFG!!! I laid down the winner for $12 on a $153 pot. I’m an idiot. UTG had Qd 7d for A high and called the river bet, and I folded my set of A’s. When will I learn?

From the what is going on here department. I limped utg with 8c7c. Table was loose/passive enough I thought I could get away with it. 7 of us see the flop for 1 bet each. Flop is the lovely Ac Qc 9c. BB bets out and I raise. No pussy footing around with 2 cards to come. 3 folds and a 3 bet in LP. BB calls and I cap it. Both call. Turn is an offsuit 7. I bet, LP calls and now the BB raises. Uh oh. I decide to raise once more, I still can’t believe 2 of us flopped the flush. LP calls 2 more and BB caps it. We both call. River is 3h. BB bets. I just call and LP raises!! BB 3 bets and I make another crying call remembering my AA hand and the LP just calls. All 3 of us flopped the flush. BB had KJ, and LP had 54. Sigh!

This happened countless times this week and I still don’t know if I can fold it. I open raise AQ in LP. Button 3 bets. He has 3 bet with any A and any Pair I have discovered. BB calls 2 and we see the flop 3 handed. Flop is AT3 two diamonds. I bet, button raises and we both call again. Turn is a J. We check to the button who bets and we both call. River is another 3, no flush and again the button bets and we both call. He has AK and takes it down. So can you fold AQ when you are 3 bet pre-flop, and raised when the A flops? I think you have to pay the guy off here.

Well, I hope I have seen the worst of this run. The texture of the games seems different to me, but I wrote the same thing when I was losing last time. There seems to be more raising pre-flop making some of my pet hands a bad play. But essentially I think I just need a few river cards not to fall against me to turn these break even weeks into winners. I’m just not winning big pots right now, and I think most of my winnigs come from 1 or 2 big pots per day.

Bozeman
09-28-2003, 03:55 PM
"OMFG!!! I laid down the winner for $12 on a $153 pot."

FWIW, since I don't know these games, I think you are beaten 95%+ of the time, so folding is right, as long as folding the winner doesn't set you on tilt.

Craig

CrackerZack
09-28-2003, 05:11 PM
David, the amount you play, if the person who you signed up with as an affiliate isn't kicking you back at least 75% of their take, you really should re-sign up with another person. I'm guessing you generate well over 1,000 in rake every week and you really really really should be seeing the majority of that back. They make free money on you just by you playing, you should be getting it back and it will help mask some of your swings. Personally, if I were you, I would've found one of your friends you know plays and have them signup for an affiliate program, and ask them to kick the whole thing back to you. Its no real effort by them.

GL and hope it turns around.
Zack

Disclaimer: I am no affiliate nor do I know anyone who is an affiliate. I make no affiliate recommendations.

SinCityGuy
09-28-2003, 06:06 PM
David,

Sorry to hear about your recent bad run. I'm sure that it will turn around soon, as your discipline and consistency have proven themselves in the long run.

I have recently started playing 3 to 4 tables simultaneously, and I have a question on how you handle a particular situation that arises from time to time. As we know, if we're playing properly tight/aggressive, we usually won't be involved in more than one hand at a time. However, it seems that once or twice per session, I'll get three big preflop hands at once. This creates a problem, as split second decisions need to be made (together with the annoying "beeping" of all of the tables waiting for a response). I really can't do much with calculating pot odds or putting the other players on hands, there's just not enough time.

Do you have any insight on handling these situations?

Thanks, and good cards to you.

Sooga
09-28-2003, 06:56 PM
Yea, if the board had 4 suits on the river and there was a bet and a call, I would probably throw a set away without thinking twice. Against a bet and a raise, it's a no brainer. Don't beat yourself up about this one.

Ulysses
09-28-2003, 07:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But from the blinds I quite often find myself with top pair and a lousy kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

5/10 online, here's my general gameplan. If it's a big top pair, I usually just bet until I'm met w/ some resistance. Sometimes I'll check-call the river. If it's a small top pair, I usually go for a check-raise on the flop. If I miss that and a scary turn card hits, I just check-fold. If I'm met w/ resitance and the board is not coordinated, I usually fold on the turn if I don't improve. If I'm met w/ resistance on a coordinated board, I'll usually get to the river (especially if there's a two flush on the board).


[ QUOTE ]
I limped behind a couple of other guys with As 2s in LP. Another limper behind me then the BB raised. 5 of us saw the flop for 2 bets each. Flop was 8 6 2, no spades. BB checked and EP bet, got a call and I decided to call too.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think the call is terrible here, but against opponents in these games, you'll be against stuff like A8/A6 enough times that I don't like it. Add one spade on the flop and I'd probably call, otherwise fold.

[ QUOTE ]
I hate folding heads up, but it sure seems I’m beat here. Knee-jerk reaction though is to click call and my 8 comes on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unless I've noticed this guy to be a real rock, I'm definitely calling down heads-up. Raising w/ two overcards (or nothing) on the turn w/ a paired board is a very common move in the Party 5/10 games. He could easily have no pair or something like A5. Nice suckout.

[ QUOTE ]
I would have been prouder of my hand reading if I could have laid down to the turn raise, but I did save a couple of bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're getting something like 14:1 there w/ what (if your hand reading is correct) are likely 3 outs to chop (deuces) and 3 outs to win (Queens). You're pretty much even money just w/ the Queens.

[ QUOTE ]
And if I laid down on the turn and the Q had rivered…..

[/ QUOTE ]
So, what? This bad streak seems to have you creeping into some results-oriented thinking, David.

[ QUOTE ]
I have AA in the SB and UTG raises. It is 3 bet from the button and I cap it. BB calls as do the other 2. Flop comes Ah Kh Tc. That’s probably hit someone. I bet, get called in 2 places and the button raises. I 3 bet, get called twice and the button caps it. We all call. Turn is the 3h. I bet into the flush board, one call and one fold and the button raises again. I finally slow down and just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the pre-flop and flop action, I think it's more likely button has AK/KK/TT than a flush draw. I'd be more worried about one of the callers. Since only button raised, I'd 3-bet the turn here.

[ QUOTE ]
River is the ugly 9h putting 4 hearts on board. UTG now bets out and button raises.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd fold here as well.

[ QUOTE ]
I decide to raise once more, I still can’t believe 2 of us flopped the flush. LP calls 2 more and BB caps it.

[/ QUOTE ]
You capped it and got raised on the turn when a card hits that shouldn't change much. Time to start believing.

Moonsugar
09-28-2003, 07:30 PM
That which does not kill you makes you stronger.

(Sure I messed up the quote, but you get the idea.)

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Losing all
09-28-2003, 09:03 PM
Good post as usual David, and I'm sure your downswing will turn around soon.

Today is my 10th day of online/party play and a few things really stand out to me.
1) the rate of bad beats is just silly. The sets on the river and runner/runner type hands calling 2 or 3 cold on the flop is mind blowing! Gotta keep it in perspective though, these are the same tools paying it off 95% of the time.
2)Playing in Vegas close to every day for a year I never played a tourney. Not sure why, but bottom line is my first ever was 10 days ago. I can't freaking believe how soft these sit n go's are! For an old ring player with no experience to just clean up right from jump street has got to tell you something. This is where the real action junkies are, and several per game are just terrible.

I'd bet your hourly rate would'nt be hurt playing a table or 2 of 50+5 or 100+8.

jasonHoldEm
09-28-2003, 09:21 PM
Hi David,

Sorry to hear about another tough week. Best I can say is try to be positive...unless I read it incorrectly you still made (some) money this week which is certainly better than losing.

I know working so hard for so little must be frustrating, but I think you're keeping your head on straight and not getting down on yourself. I think you made a wise decision moving to Empire. Have you ever considered dropping down to 2/4 on a bad night instead of trying to "get it back" at 3/6? This week I started playing an afternoon session at 1/2 (I usually play 2/4) and I found the drop to the softer limit to be very "relaxing" and profitable at the same time. As much as I don't want to see you in my game it might be something to consider, even if it just helps to get your confidence back it might be worth it.

Hope that next week will see things turned around as you settle into 3/6 at Empire.

Peace,
Jason

davidross
09-28-2003, 09:34 PM
I actually noticed you time out once last night while you were playing another hand.

I've had times where I had a raising hand on all 4 tables at once. That was tough. You have a lot of time to be honest though. around 25 seconds each. THis is where you lose some of your EV though. THere is no doubt you will make more mistakes under time pressure than if it wasn't there. It's like playing speed chess. You just do your best.

davidross
09-28-2003, 09:35 PM
THanks for replying. I like your insights and agree with almost everything you wrote.

TobDog
09-28-2003, 10:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
and when I asked how I was supposed to know what he had, he told me it was just math. I’m not kidding. It was kind of fun.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is amazing that all the smartest math guys are always at 'your table'?

Great post again David. Helps us all keep the dream alive

tobdog

Boopotts
09-28-2003, 11:39 PM
david-

a couple things.

First, it seems to me like your swings are really high. I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 150-200 hrs. in at Party now, playing three games at once, and I haven't had a session yet where I lost more than 400 bucks; although, aside from that 1100 dollar win I booked about a week ago, I haven't had a winning session over 700$. It's possible that this is my problem, and that your larger swings are due to the fact that your play is closer to optimal than mine, but it might not be a bad idea to see to take some mental notes on how often you three bet the flop when you're behind, etc., and see if there aren't a couple places where you can save a few bets.

Also, I tend to do more slowplaying when I flop top pair, J's or better, in a heads-up pot out of position. Most of our opponents go into auto-bet when it's checked to them on the flop, and I get enough guys to bet an unimproved Q5o all the way to make this play something worth looking into. You don't have to turn many 10 dollar pots into 40 pots to make this play worthwhile, and since your opponent is usually AT BEST a 4-1 underdog, it's a nice little play to add to your repetoire.

Good luck on Empire. The games on Party are slowly starting to dry up, which means a change of venues is probably in order. I'll be opening an account there as well in the next week or so-- hopefully I'll figure out who you are.)

BTW, I'm trying to put together a small list of players who know what they're doing on Party. I don't pay much attention to my opponents online, so this list may include some real fish who've just happened to to play a couple hands well against me-- in any case, if you have anything to add to this list (or subtract from it) I'd appreciate it.

Acesdad
DOOMer
Islander
Zippo


There are probably more, but I can't think of them off hand. If you can add any names, please do!

Thanks,
Guy

Moonsugar
09-29-2003, 08:27 AM
SizeMook
Woorat
MaxPower
e9spirit

If you use PockerTracker it really helps in this respect.

davidross
09-29-2003, 08:28 AM
Hey Boo,

I think my swings are higher because I'm generally looser than most posters. Because I play more marginal hands I run the risk of bigger swings both good and bad. Plus I had a lot of 5/10 included before which also leads to bigger swings. SInce I switched to the 3/6 games I think my swings have been rather moderate. I've only had one loss over $400 in 10 weeks at Party. At paradise I had a few, and now in one week at Empire I've had one over $700. Yikes.

The EMpire games are the Party games. Not similar, they are the same. I was on a table with you last night while I was playing at Empire and you were at Party. You didn't even know it was me.

Nottom
09-29-2003, 09:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
A tough fold. My first Empire hand history. I open raise in EP with Ad Qc. Button cold calls and SB completes. BB folds. Flop is the lovely Ac As 6h. No slow play for me I bet out. Button raises and SB cold calls. Hmm. Even my simple math tells me there aren’t enough aces to go around, and there are no draws on the board. Maybe a pocket pair that doesn’t believe the A is out there. I 3 bet, button caps and SB calls again. If we were heads up I’d believe the button had an A and take my chances, but what could the SB have? It’s certainly starting to look like Ax in the blind, and 66 on the button. But I’m still not certain. Turn is a 2. I bet into him one more time, he raises and SB calls 2 more cold. I call again. River is a J. We check to the button who bets, and now the SB raises. Ding. Finally I fold and the button doesn’t believe it so he raises again and the SB caps it. He of course had AJ. Button did indeed have 66. I would have been prouder of my hand reading if I could have laid down to the turn raise, but I did save a couple of bets. And if I laid down on the turn and the Q had rivered…..

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you realize a turn fold is a mistake if your read is accurate. By my count you are getting 14-1 on your turn call, if the button has 66 and the SB has a smaller Ace (not A6) you have 3 outs to split (2's) and 3 outs to win outright (Qs) which is more than enough to call in such a big pot.

leon
09-29-2003, 09:47 AM
David, quick question for you. It's not clear from your post if you can play more than 3 tables at once using a combo of empire and party. I see that it is the same site, and that you can't sit at a table with "yourself", but can you sit at 4 or more tables using both sites?

The reason I ask is b/c I too have noticed a toughing of the games on paradise. My win rate there is much lower than at party. I continue to play there simply b/c I can only play 3 at once on party and like you I use a 4th table. If I can play my 4th (and 5th) at empire then I'd rather do that.

Leon

CrackerZack
09-29-2003, 10:15 AM
Its bad form to post people's usernames online whether you're listing total fish or good players. Besides there are some errors in your names already.

And that MaxPower guy is a total fish. He kept raising me last night with a set of twos when I had 5 high! These sites are rigged. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Moonsugar
09-29-2003, 10:27 AM
Besides, what is anyone going to do with the information?

If it is wrong you will find out soon enough. If it is right you will find out soon enough.

It is more or less a compliment, nothing much more.

JTrout
09-29-2003, 10:40 AM
Leon wrote--"It's not clear from your post if you can play more than 3 tables at once using a combo of empire and party. I see that it is the same site, and that you can't sit at a table with "yourself", but can you sit at 4 or more tables using both sites?"
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Yes, you can play at 3 each, for a total of 6.
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David, another enjoyable post. It will be interesting to read next week your thought on playing on Empire annonomously (sp), and the switch to 4 3-6 games and if you're happy with it.
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Couple of tips if you want to remain annonomous for more than a very short time- 1) stagger your times logging on and off 2)buy in for way more ( or less) on Empire, and don't auto reload when you hit 50. 3) You can change your name at least once on Empire.
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I'm guessing the variance with the 4 games you're on now will be between "good week" and "very good week".
I enjoy your posts, and playing cards with you. Keep up the good work.
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Speck (trout)
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ps. If my wife does have a contract on me, I'll double the going rate to double-cross!

Bokonon
09-29-2003, 11:17 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I have AA in the SB and UTG raises. It is 3 bet from the button and I cap it. BB calls as do the other 2. Flop comes Ah Kh Tc. That's probably hit someone. I bet, get called in 2 places and the button raises. I 3 bet, get called twice and the button caps it. We all call. Turn is the 3h. I bet into the flush board, one call and one fold and the button raises again. I finally slow down and just call. River is the ugly 9h putting 4 hearts on board. UTG now bets out and button raises. I swear, look for the dog who is way ahead of me and left the room, and finally come to my senses and fold saving 2 bb's. UTG calls. Button wins it with a set of Kings. OMFG!!! I laid down the winner for $12 on a $153 pot. I'm an idiot. UTG had Qd 7d for A high and called the river bet, and I folded my set of A's. When will I learn?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad this happens to better players than me, because this always causes me pain. I've laid down sets when a four-flush hits the board and two people are in before me on the river, only to have the EXACT same thing happen. I don't know yet whether it's still +EV to lay down in this situation -- lord knows it SHOULD be -- but until I know for sure I'm always calling. It's just a lot less painful to feel a little bit like an idiot and lose 2BB than to feel like a complete moron and lose 15 of them.

MaxPower
09-29-2003, 11:27 AM
That's it. I'm definitely changing my Party name now. I even got a PM from someone yesterday who was watching me play at Party. I'm drawing too much attention and can't play stupid anymore /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriously though, I don't think we should be posting peoples names here. I'm flattered that you think I am good, but I'm not that great. I'm still trying to get a win rate as good as David Ross'.

I have found that there are a core of regular players at Party that are pretty good. You can easily tell who they are by watching them play or looking at their V$IP and pre-flop raise % in pokertracker. For instance, I pretty quickly noticed that you (Moonsugar) were good even before I saw you posting here.

It is amazing though, even though I play on there almost every day and play 3 tables, I am usually playing with all unknown players.

MaxPower
09-29-2003, 11:32 AM
Its too bad you were all-in, I could have taken more of your money /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you say I am a fish, I must be. I don't think there is a poker player alive who knows more about my game than you.

J.R.
09-29-2003, 11:57 AM
You play too passive pre-flop, in my estimation. I have about 250 hands against you and you raise preflop just under 3% of the time. You are one of the tighter players I play against, but are more straightforward preflop than most. Perhaps that is why your fluctuations are less. But if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

CrackerZack
09-29-2003, 01:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously though, I don't think we should be posting peoples names here. I'm flattered that you think I am good, but I'm not that great. I'm still trying to get a win rate as good as David Ross'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed completely. even david is keeping his empire name secret.

In case it wasn't obvious, I was just picking on Max since I've been playing with him for like 3 or 4 years now in various games and he belongs on the list. I'm not, which I'm happy about, and if I wasn't incognito, I'd probably PM you asking you to take me off. I realize it isn't much info, but you'd be surprised with the number of lurkers.

frizzfreeling
09-29-2003, 08:08 PM
I play about 2-3 thousand hands a week at party and have been thinking about putting some cash into empire so I can play more hands and get the sign up bonus. I know they are really one and the same. Anyway, I am currious as to what this affiliate program is? I hear you guys talking about kickbacks, so whats the deal? If I signed up using you as my affiliate, do you get paid for every raked game I play? If so, im game. Tell me about it and who is trustworthy enough to give me back a portion of the money, if you arent interested yourself. Thanks

davidross
09-29-2003, 08:53 PM
I am not an affiliate so I can't help you, but I'm sure just by posting this you will hear from several people offering their services. Empire pays your affiliate 10% of the rakes you generate, and you 2 can split that any way you choose.

I chose someone who I had corresponded with a fair bit and feel is trustworthy. You may have your own favorite.

davidross
09-29-2003, 08:56 PM
Yes you can play up to 6 tables combining Empire and Party. I haven't tried more than 4 yet, but considering the Empire bonus I might start playing 3 empire and only 1 Party.

crockpot
09-29-2003, 09:00 PM
Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

leon
09-29-2003, 09:27 PM
I played 6 games earlier today. It worked out pretty well, but it was an effort to line up the screens just so so that there was no overlap of action buttons.

Oh yeah, I ended stuck for the session too /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Something about the blue just is more eye pleasing than the red, in my opinion.

Take care David

Leon

spoody
09-29-2003, 09:50 PM
I am not trying to be a smart alek...but,

Why is it bad form to post peoples usernames online? Who cares? They are just usernames. How else would you talk about someone? Names like Lederer, Helmuth, Duke, etc, get brought up all the time, and those are their real names. Should we not use their names either and say things like, the Math PHD with a biblical name? The Poker Brat? the one who was 9 mos pregnant in the WSOP? I just have no idea why it is bad form to mention a username in here.

Spoody

PS, I am a fan of the chessplaying, 2 time WPT winning, brother to the one who was 9mos pregnant in the WSOP....OK that was a little smart aleky /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

shutupndeal
09-29-2003, 11:40 PM
Hi David,

Funny but EXACTLY what your doing is what I had been asking for on another forum. We were locked in that war of "Online Poker" is it safe and above board or not, and so I figured Ok, if its legit then show me a winner and I will believe you but people wouldnt come forward and I am so happy that you are doing this. Theres many reasons for online poker to be rewarding although the reasons that I think it would be you dont see posted anywhere else BUT Im not here for the attention I am here to say Thanx for doing this as many of us are interested in one way, shape or form what happens to you! May I ask you this though, I am SURE you have read certain books about poker and so why is it you seem to go so deep into a game on a losing nite? Dont you believe in setting "limits" my friend? All pros that I know of "TRY" to set them, not all of them are as good at saying G'nite as they should but they all know better and we all know what happens all too well when we push it. Theres many reasons for a losing nite besides the odds catching up with you and so this is a VERY IMPORTANT thing for you to have as a safeguard against your (and our) bad judgement on certain nites Dave. Last thing, I started this l8, Im sorry but today is my first day here so can U tell me what are the numbers after 22 weeks so far? Up or down what? Oh and Dave, do you keep your hand histories at all or dont you think it would be invaluable to wiegh online play against say a Wilson Software Simulation or one of the poker generator sims to make sure the numbers jive, it seems that many people believe the numbers are favoring flushes just a bit too much, lol! I am laughing cuz I do have 1 more so sorry BUT why are you playing so many different games instead of playing in a larger game Dave?
Thanx so much and again keep up the good work, MANY of us have an eye on you and are interested! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

rigoletto
09-30-2003, 09:15 AM
Dont you believe in setting "limits" my friend? All pros that I know of "TRY" to set them, not all of them are as good at saying G'nite as they should but they all know better and we all know what happens all too well when we push it.

I don't think setting a stop-limit is very 'pro'. You should stop if you are: to tired, tilting, the game is to tough for you etc. Not because you arbitrarily lost a certain amount. I have often been down 20-25 BB and sometimes even 50 BB in games where I knew I could beat the game and most of those times my session ended as a winning one. Had I stopped at a say 25 BB loss I would have missed a lot of $.

davidross
09-30-2003, 09:20 AM
lol. I think so. That's just me recalling the wrong number.

davidross
09-30-2003, 09:28 AM
1) I try to play hours. I set a quitting time when I start and try to play my best until that time. THe results take care of themselves, although I have to admit I rarely play later on winning nights. One reason to keep playing later is: it seems to me that the games are softer in teh early morning. Lots of tired drunk opponents, so if you get a good run of cards you can make a comeback, as I have often.

2) Through 22 weeks I'm up $27,569. Thats about a million canadian. Actually the damn canadian dollar has vbeen very strong lately, I'm not getting the 1.50 I got when I bought my TV last winter.

3) I only keep hand histories long enough to put them in my posts. I don't use any tracking software although I can't give you a good reason why not.

CrackerZack
09-30-2003, 12:06 PM

lefty rosen
09-30-2003, 04:44 PM
I noticed you talked of playing both sites 2 tables at once, considering you have played there for a while I guess you know that they are the same site, just different images like Coke and Sprite or Pepsi and Moutain Dew........

stick
09-30-2003, 04:47 PM
By two accounts at once do you mean play on party at the same time as playing on empire? Of course you could, but there would be little reason to do so. If you were asking if he could join the same table with his party account as with his empire account, then no.

crockpot
09-30-2003, 07:42 PM
there is some reason, but only if you play on more than three tables at once, since each server limits you to three. or if you liked having a multicolor scheme on your desktop instead of all yellow.

davidross
09-30-2003, 07:46 PM
You can play both sites at once, but not on the same table. THe only reason I am doing it is to play a 4th table, but because of the rake return program on Empire I am playing 3 tables at empire and only 1 at Party.

shutupndeal
10-02-2003, 06:23 PM
Hi Dave,
Thanx 4 answering my questions so qwikly buddy! I cant believe it, 27 thousand for real? In low limit games Dave?
Your not kidding this old timer are ya, seriously? Is or WAS there some theory when you started abouit how you would go about playing in these slugfests? I mean the typical inline game is nowhere as tame as hell, well any game in a real casino I dont care the limit. These online low limits are totally nuts as far as guys being "calling stations" and that requires a different tack then a regular game Dave. Why do you play so many at one time, have you tried a higher limit?

davidross
10-02-2003, 10:25 PM
I have tried to be completely honest in these posts. I've told about my bad plays and my limitations, as well as the good runs I've had. Those numbers are exact to the penny.

I win becuase of bad play by others, not by any special plays I make. I make a lot of money on big pairs and sets, and hopefully lose less on missed flops. My theory has been that there are more bad players at the lower limits, and my rate per table in bb's is higher. By playing more tables I can make up the dollars you lose because the limits are lower. I can't seem to play multiple 5/10 tables as well becuase there are more good players and it requires more concentration than I can give it.

I will try higher limits when it is no longer my primary source of income.